San Francisco declares the NRA a domestic terrorist entity

Nomad1382

Old-Salt
CDC is notorious for inflating stats to fill agendas. Their stats will include suicides, accidents, any death that involves a firearm. The anti-gun people like to quote those stats because they are inflated and don't give a clear picture of homicide by firearm.

The CDC used to be a good source but now you have to wonder about the reliability of their stats for infectious diseases (both inflating and under-reporting).
 

Mattb

LE
CDC is notorious for inflating stats to fill agendas. Their stats will include suicides, accidents, any death that involves a firearm. The anti-gun people like to quote those stats because they are inflated and don't give a clear picture of homicide by firearm.

The CDC used to be a good source but now you have to wonder about the reliability of their stats for infectious diseases (both inflating and under-reporting).
It certainly doesn't include suicides, as they're covered separately, as is accidental discharge of a firearm.

It may include people who've criminally-negligently caused someone else's death with a firearm, but that would still fit in my "citizens killing each other with firearms" category anyway.
 

Nomad1382

Old-Salt
Then the CDC would be guilty of double reporting to inflate the stats. I know that they have included all firearms deaths including accidental and suicides. The FBI specifically does not include that data in the UCR.
 

Mattb

LE
Either way, it's not really the point. 10,000 or 15,000, it's still an enormous number.

For comparison, the UK figure was 29.
 
Either way, it's not really the point. 10,000 or 15,000, it's still an enormous number.

For comparison, the UK figure was 29.
And just to restate the obvious we are not the UK.
 
In fact the USA is, er a bit bigger than the UK with a population some seven times that of the UK's.

Still a high per head of population figure.
Any senseless death is a loss to society. If however you adjust the annual deaths to account for the epidemic violence of our larger cities the US firearm death rate is radically different.

This is but one metric demonstrating the irrationality of focusing almost exclusively on the firearm and in an apparent intellectual vacuum where ignorance of both the existing laws and the subject matter (even the most basic aspects such as how a particular firearm functions) supplanted by emotion that in turn is manipulated quite callously for partisan and ideological agendas.

Exacerbating all this in the context of ARSSE, as is evident by some posts in various ARRSE fora, is a seeming inability/unwillingness of some from other cultures to assess matters here in the context of our culture, whether one likes it or not and not through the lens of other cultures, government systems etc. Of course this is not really surprising when one considers the propagandistic nature of the media coverage of these issues.
 
Of course this is not really surprising when one considers the propagandistic nature of the media coverage of these issues.
Propaganda bordering on hysteria in some cases. Plus blatant desinformatsiya in best Soviet manner, spiced with ignorance and lazyness by some journos, eg AR15s are assault rifles, therefore anyone in the States can buy an assault rifle. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes or Einstein to do a bit of basic research into facts, but for some people that is far too much like hard work. I see this regularly in the German press.
 
Propaganda bordering on hysteria in some cases. Plus blatant desinformatsiya in best Soviet manner, spiced with ignorance and lazyness by some journos, eg AR15s are assault rifles, therefore anyone in the States can buy an assault rifle. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes or Einstein to do a bit of basic research into facts, but for some people that is far too much like hard work. I see this regularly in the German press.
Spot on. Just as we have had to deal with politicians and "activists" holding some evil looking black firearm (racism perhaps) speaking authoritatively about its cyclic rate (in the thousands) etc.

A case in point:

And another:

 
Spot on. Just as we have had to deal with politicians and "activists" holding some evil looking black firearm (racism perhaps) speaking authoritatively about its cyclic rate (in the thousands) etc.

A case in point:

And another:



Hey don't hate the flakes, PTSD comes naturally these days.
 
speaking authoritatively about its cyclic rate (in the thousands) etc.
In the military library in JHQ I read a book on the AK 47, I rapidly determined that the writer knows how to spell gun and that's the sum of his knowledge. Reading the book was somewhere between painfull fascination and hilarious. One pearl of wisdom "the AK47 fires a frightening 700 rds per minute". That I would love to see, 30 rd mags changed at the rate of around 24 per minute, plus of course a couple of barrel changes! Or maybe those crafty Russkies issued their troops with mags around 6ft long or drum mags 6ft wide.
 
In the military library in JHQ I read a book on the AK 47, I rapidly determined that the writer knows how to spell gun and that's the sum of his knowledge. Reading the book was somewhere between painfull fascination and hilarious. One pearl of wisdom "the AK47 fires a frightening 700 rds per minute". That I would love to see, 30 rd mags changed at the rate of around 24 per minute, plus of course a couple of barrel changes! Or maybe those crafty Russkies issued their troops with mags around 6ft long or drum mags 6ft wide.
I wonder what hyperbolic adjective the author would use for an MG42 or M134?
 
I have just bought a new firearm, a custom built one, it will arrive Tuesday. To have it shipped I had to send a copy of an FFL from an FFL dealer. It will be shipped to the FFL dealer who I will visit when it has arrived. I will need to fill in ATF form 4473, after I have filled in the form the FFL holder will usually call the NICS ( National Instant Criminal Background Check System) to ensure I am legally allowed to own the firearm.

Because I have a concealed carry permit, the NICS check doesn't have to be done because being a concealed carry permit holder, I have already been checked and found to be law abiding. Should I break the law then my concealed carry permit would instantly be revoked and if found guilty of a felony or certain other crimes I would be refused the firearms during a NICS check. Also if I I were ever to be found guilty of a felony crime, it would be illegal for me to possess the firearms I already have and would therefore have to dispose of them.

ATF form 4473 registers the serial number of the firearm and so a record of that firearm and who owns it has now been made. If I privately sell a firearm to someone I always insist that the transaction is done through an FFL holder and I will pay for the transfer. Much more than that I can't see what should be done.

I have pointed out before that with a population of a little under 320 million people, the US has about 400 million guns in private hands that are "known." That means, without counting unrecorded transfers, personal builds, or antiques and relics, we have more firearms in private ownership than the entire rest of the planet combined. We also have more licensed gun dealers than we have Starbucks coffee shops.

Though the US has more guns than it has people, and more guns than the rest of the world combined, it is in the middle for the total number of homicides per capita.
 
I have pointed out before that with a population of a little under 320 million people, the US has about 400 million guns in private hands that are "known." That means, without counting unrecorded transfers, personal builds, or antiques and relics, we have more firearms in private ownership than the entire rest of the planet combined. We also have more licensed gun dealers than we have Starbucks coffee shops.

Though the US has more guns than it has people, and more guns than the rest of the world combined, it is in the middle for the total number of homicides per capita.
that 400 million number is suspect at best. it assumes all those made are still in existence and workable. Doesnt count those destroyed by Police departments , Lost, Burned in fires, Smuggled out of country to various groups (criminal, terrorist, etc)
 
From the CDC - not sure what causes the discrepancy (perhaps the FBI stats count multiple murders as a single crime?)


Whatever the precise number, it’s still huge.
not with a population of over 320,000,000 it isnt. it's miniscule, less than 1%
 
that 400 million number is suspect at best. it assumes all those made are still in existence and workable. Doesnt count those destroyed by Police departments , Lost, Burned in fires, Smuggled out of country to various groups (criminal, terrorist, etc)
All of mine work. All of my Dad's 300+ C&R arms were still working when he died. So did his Dad's. Added to my pile, my arsenal is getting into 4 digits. I am not the only one, by a long shot.

Obama likely smuggled out a lot less AR-15s to Mexican drug lords than there were full auto AK-47s imported by Clinton's Chinese buddies after his gun ban was passed.

If the 1.2 guns per person estimate is incorrect, it is my contention that it is too low, rather than too high.

How many guns does the average gun person you know have that they admit to? Thirty percent of Americans admit to owning guns. I personally don't know any gun owner that has less than 4 guns which makes that average 1.2 per person, but the reality is everyone I know is probably owns more than 10 instead of only 4, which will swing that estimate a wee bit higher.

Ask a few about themselves and who they know, and do the math...

@jumpinjarhead

@LJONESY

@Effendi

@Oddbod
 
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Mattb

LE
Though the US has more guns than it has people, and more guns than the rest of the world combined, it is in the middle for the total number of homicides per capita.
Hardly tells the whole story though.
When compared to peer countries (ie liberal capitalist democracies with a high GDP) it easily tops the list*. Yes, you’re better than Somalia, Mexico, Iraq et al - but is that really saying much?

*except Greenland, but given murder rates are generally given per 100K population and Greenland doesn’t have 100K people, any murder there is going to change the stats pretty quickly.
 
Hardly tells the whole story though.
When compared to peer countries (ie liberal capitalist democracies with a high GDP) it easily tops the list*. Yes, you’re better than Somalia, Mexico, Iraq et al - but is that really saying much?

*except Greenland, but given murder rates are generally given per 100K population and Greenland doesn’t have 100K people, any murder there is going to change the stats pretty quickly.
It's alright, we love stats...

"US homicide rates were 7.0 times higher than in other high-income countries, driven by a gun homicide rate that was 25.2 times higher. For 15- to 24-year-olds, the gun homicide rate in the United States was 49.0 times higher. Firearm-related suicide rates were 8.0 times higher in the United States, but the overall suicide rates were average. Unintentional firearm deaths were 6.2 times higher in the United States. The overall firearm death rate in the United States from all causes was 10.0 times higher. Ninety percent of women, 91% of children aged 0 to 14 years, 92% of youth aged 15 to 24 years, and 82% of all people killed by firearms were from the United States."

Source: US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health, 2017
 

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