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SAAI Instr Cse. Why?

#1
My apologies, for the cryptic title! Was wondering how much it cost to train 1 student on the SAAI Course.

By way of explanation, I am in the MPGS, (insert sneer) and one of my guys just attended the course, purely because we require him to conduct a WHT on the A2 only. We have no other weapons available, not even bayonets. So why take a place that an Infanteer could fill (ie someone who may actually use the range of skills taught), when we just want a guy that can assess competency as per the PAM with the rifle. Why cant he attend a short course locally which will just qualify him to do so, saving everyone's time and money, and freeing up a place for a more deserving individual.
 
#3
My apologies, for the cryptic title! Was wondering how much it cost to train 1 student on the SAAI Course.

By way of explanation, I am in the MPGS, (insert sneer) and one of my guys just attended the course, purely because we require him to conduct a WHT on the A2 only. We have no other weapons available, not even bayonets. So why take a place that an Infanteer could fill (ie someone who may actually use the range of skills taught), when we just want a guy that can assess competency as per the PAM with the rifle. Why cant he attend a short course locally which will just qualify him to do so, saving everyone's time and money, and freeing up a place for a more deserving individual.
Hi Baldbleep,

Just considering the wages of an infantry Cpl for the duration of the course it would be 17.27 pounds.
 
#7
My apologies, for the cryptic title! Was wondering how much it cost to train 1 student on the SAAI Course.

By way of explanation, I am in the MPGS, (insert sneer) and one of my guys just attended the course, purely because we require him to conduct a WHT on the A2 only. We have no other weapons available, not even bayonets. So why take a place that an Infanteer could fill (ie someone who may actually use the range of skills taught), when we just want a guy that can assess competency as per the PAM with the rifle. Why cant he attend a short course locally which will just qualify him to do so, saving everyone's time and money, and freeing up a place for a more deserving individual.
Did someone end up doing extra shifts to cover him? Never mind, don't get a bag on, get a mag on and stag on.

Your bonk 'wht assessor' only course would be a waste of time and probably take too much time for the limited qual you would receive.

If you are unhappy about the situation why not bang in for some courses yourself?
 
#8
Thankyou for your reply II. As a Det, we don't require range qualified people, we have plenty, what we lacked was having someone to carry out WHT's. His attendance did not require extra shifts as I adjusted the rosta accordingly, even if it did, that would have been worth it to aquire a SAAI. Are you aware of just how rare places on the Course are? Up until 2012, MPGS were restricted to 2 pax a year!! I have applied for the course for 5 years, and now as a Senior, am told it is haighly unlikley I will get it. Anyway, my intent ref the question was to try and save money and time to acheive a specific goal, the AASAAI course will always be there, if we required the whole range of skills we could bid for it, in this instance we just wanted a WHT guy, so why not ad a short course, alongside the full SAAIn which would allow us as a unit to be assesed and stay within the law?
 
#9
The Cadets tried a WHT Assessor, it didn't end well.

For starters, if the WHT Assessor fails someone who then retrains the failure?

To assess you need to know the drills to the same level as an instructor, so what is the point of this 'automatic only' qual?

Bang people in on the AASAA course, it sounds like you've got a credit to your det (especially if the places are so few). Are there other 'range only' qualled people getting a strop on because they feel that they have been usurped?

I always viewed RMQ people with suspicion. Why didn't they do the SAA course?
 
Z

Zarathustra

Guest
#11
The majority of Infantry cpls will have done SCBC not AASAA, so no need to worry about taking up one of our slots.
 
Z

Zarathustra

Guest
#14
Really?! Where did you here that then?



No, the MPGS are capbadged as AGC.
There are a few non inf units that have slots available to them on SCBC. I can't remember which off the top of my head but it's all on DII.
 
#15
Really?! Where did you here that then?
Baldbleep seems to indicate the MPGS lad was on the Infantry SAA bit (ie part of SCBC).

By way of explanation, I am in the MPGS, (insert sneer) and one of my guys just attended the course, purely because we require him to conduct a WHT on the A2 only. We have no other weapons available, not even bayonets. So why take a place that an Infanteer could fill (ie someone who may actually use the range of skills taught), when we just want a guy that can assess competency as per the PAM with the rifle. Why cant he attend a short course locally which will just qualify him to do so, saving everyone's time and money, and freeing up a place for a more deserving individual.
No, the MPGS are capbadged as AGC.
And SASC are badged SASC and RPC as RPC and then RLC.

HCR/RAC capbadges are HCR/RAC.

Any idea what I am going on about? Read the Pam.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
#17
There are a few non inf units that have slots available to them on SCBC. I can't remember which off the top of my head but it's all on DII.
Yes, I know I remember seeing a couple on my course, but MPGS don't rate slots. It's usually RAC who are in dismounted role or RA who are FO types. There'll always be a smattering of other capbadges who get a place because their role will put them working with the Infantry, but as that doesn't apply to the MPGS so it's hard to see how or indeed why they'd want to get on this course.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
#18
Baldbleep seems to indicate the MPGS lad was on the Infantry SAA bit (ie part of SCBC).
I'd suggest that that's not the case, but perhaps baldbleep can clarify this for us.


Any idea what I am going on about? Read the Pam.
My bold: Frankly, no. Which Pam are you referring to? As per my previous post, IBS limits slots on SCBC for non-Inf to those to those who will be working in dismounted close combat roles. There are exceptions, but there aren't many.
 
#19
Thanks for the replies, I will clarify some things.

1. MPGS are not Infantry we are AGC (Sigh!). No requirement for SCBC.

2. There is no rankle and no complaint about the guy in question going on the course, we required him to do it to keep us within the law. There are 3 other people within the Det who want to do the course including myself. I was not usurped but stepped aside as I have had to do my CLM stuff this year, and the guy is my best mate, and a cracking bloke.......so no chagrin at all.

3. It was the short AASAAI course, which included field craft, bayonet drills, GPMG (and other weapons, which by law, we are not issued with), a focus on training of recruits, not trained soldiers, and didnt even have a WHT test or tute for the A2 on the course, as it is "read from the Pamphlet verbatim", yet he is now qualified to test. If this is the case, and its from my friends own mouth, then what was the 2 weeks for?? A (working) week on how to teach weapon handling and conduct a WHT seems adequate for the needs of the MPGS.

4. We are not Cadets, both myself and the SAAI in question have completed over 20 years service each. I have ex Colour men in my section, which is mostly ex Inf. (This has no bearing on Weapon skills, just putting you in the picture).

5. The short course does not qualify him to run a range, we only shoot LFMT fires anyway, so RMQ is sufficient.

6. I am RMQ, I know bugger all about weapons other than what I have been taught over the years, I am however current qualified and authorised to run PAM shoots on purpose built ranges. Something we are mandatorially required to do as per our job spec (I dont agree with the shooting policy, but that is another topic).

7. There seems to be a misunderstanding on what/who the MPGS are. We are armed capable guards, this means we are required (just like everyone else) to be current and qualified on weapon handling , to be authorised to carry weapons whilst on duty. BUT............... our range of weapons is limited to the rifle and the pistol, very few detachments have pistols, mainly dog handlers, of which I was one at Lydd, and a baiter. So I do do courses, and would do many more if I could, but they have to have UTILITY, or you wont get 'em!!
 
#20
It's all to do with having a thorough knowledge of the weapon system in which you will be assessing. At the end of the day you now have a fully trained individual who can teach and test members of your det in weapon handling. An individual is required to sit a period of reminding and refreshing before they are tested anyway, or so the Pam alludes to.

What happens when one of your soldiers is on the sick for 8 months, then is back to work after not touching the weapon system for that period of time? Wouldn't you rather a trained and competent instructor refreshes that individual rather than just test them and get it out the way?

What about on the ranges? A trained SAA instr would be able to assist in helping those 'shit shots' in retraining of the position and hold, breathing, aiming, marksmanship principles etc. your RMQ bods albeit coaching qualified wont have the In-depth knowledge.

I was a training snco throughout a busy and hectic MST period. I am an AASAAI (full course not two weeks!!) and had another 2 AASAAIs assisting me on my range days, along with a number of RMQ trained pax. The AASAAI were a lot better at coaching the battle shot, understood the mechanics of the weapons better and actually gave a **** and were proud of their knowledge and experience whilst the RMQs (not all) didn't really give a **** and would just sign people off because they couldn't be arsed. This was proven when my unit achieved a near 100 percent pass rate on the ACMT.

You guys are the eyes and ears of many of our establishments and I feel that you should be given the same amount of training as your regular counterparts in regards to weapon handling regardless of how long you've been in or how good you think you are. A trained and in date AASAAI will help you tick that box by not only conducting the buckshee WHTs but by also incorporating revision periods and retracting those bad habits out, which we all pick up.

PamHead




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