SA80A2 reliability

#41
I agree with chickenpunk about using especially nasty ammunition that sails close to the wind in terms of the Geneva Convention. This sort of thing is just one step away from the talk of laser weapons which can blind large numbers of soldiers in the field I heard some years ago. Along with 'dum-dum' rounds, I believe that sawback bayonets were also definitely non-U in the Great War.
 
#42
Supposedly pioneer sgts from the german army who were issused with saw back bayonets got short shift from tommy when they got caught
as the bayonets were considered evil . personally if i got 1ft of steel thrust into me by an angry prussian it wouldnt really matter if it was saw backed or not .
Didnt the after action report from the USMC which was on here months ago there report said For the most part they were happy with the man stopping ability of 5.56 and except in exceptional circumstances 1 round put an enemy down .
A2 works but its not the most ergonomic of weapons and the lsw is horrible hopefully soon to be replaced but i doubt it a book on the whole sa80 debacle could be written but a bet the forty year rule prevents this
 
#43
This link takes you to a web page that possibly shows you the next US Army rifle.

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html

I have read the reports on it and it looks on paper at lest to be a very capable weapon system. It comes with different barrel lengths enabling the one system to replace most if not all section weapons.

Note who makes the weapon, HK, who are owned by BAe Systems. Could this be the next weapon for the British Army.

Unlikely, as we would want a protracted development over about 20 years costing untold millions just so we could have something else that falls apart.

Cynical, who me?
 
#44
gizzardtoo said:
Note who makes the weapon, HK, who are owned by BAe Systems. Could this be the next weapon for the British Army.
It's essentially an H&K G36 with new furniture, as I understand it. The story goes like this.....

Once upon a time, the US decided to improve their rifles, and had the "advanced combat rifle (ACR)" program. The specification essentially said "make it twice as effective as the M16". They tried all sorts of exotic stuff, including modified AUGs firing flechette rounds, caseless rounds, two bullets in the same round, souped-up M16s, etc, etc. But they didn't get "twice as effective", and decided to spend the money on improved sighting systems for their existing rifles.

They then created two new programs; the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) and the Objective Crew-Served Weapon (OCSW). They realised that "twice as effective" could mean "hitting the enemy twice as far away", but also realised that training people to point a rifle steadily to the accuracy required to hit at 600m was difficult.

So, using the theory of the group, you either make the targets twice as wide (hmmm.... that explains the spread of Macdonalds?) or you make the projectile hit twice as big an area. Namely, fire a grenade. Which also has the advantage that you can hit people in cover.

They came up with a bullpup 20mm automatic grenade-firing rifle (the OICW) but in order to address the problem of "what happens when Ivan the Gasman pops up from the nearest bush" they strapped a rifle under the front of it. Too much watching of "Aliens", methinks. The winning bid was a consortium, with H&K doing the rifle part of the combination.

The big problem was the weight of the OICW (now the XM29). It's still over 7kg, and the 20mm grenades aren't quite cutting it in the performance stakes. So, they up the grenades to 25mm, but this makes it heavier, so they decide that they won't give one to everyone in the rifle squad, etc, etc. They also want the rifle bit to be dismountable from the grenade launcher bit, for when it breaks/runs out of ammo/whatever, and so they can continue developing each part of the weapon separately.

So, H&K takes the rifle part of the XM29, puts a butt on it, calls it the XM8, and starts trialling the rifle separately to prove that it's reliable (sensible). Meanwhile, the US Army is getting annoyed with M16 reliability as well as soldier loads, and the rumours start that the section of the future won't be M29 and M4 (cut-down M16) but M29 and M8......
 
#45
didnt bae sell off h&K as it was incompatable with the corporations
mission statement to sell expensive weapons that no one needs but gets anyway cos they cry to government about jobs till they buy it
 
#49
Cutaway said:
Bit of a downer when shooter squeezes the trigger, wpn goes BANG ! then shooter thinks, "Wow - didn't expect that !"

:wink:
Its the face of the opposing foe that would be amusing... realIsing the Rifle actually worked... OH F**k
 
#50
Call me old fashioned but I trust small arms stuff the Krauts make. I'd take the '36.
 
#51
Agreed - the Spanish and German armies both use the HKG36 (are there others?) and I have seen various U.S. police forces using them (and they have choice). Apart from H.M. Forces, only the Jamaican Defence Forces use the SA80....verdict enough.
 
#52
" the Spanish and German armies both use the HKG36 "

... but the Hooligans rejected it due to reliability problems encountered in jungle and desert environments during user trials. Confirmatory paperwork can be found at SATIC, if you know where to look.

Dig deep enough and you might also find the recent report where A2 LSW out-performed Minimi - much to the surprise of the trials team - albeit without the LSW's built-in 30-round stoppage factor being considered.

L.
 
#53
I didn't know that, but I had heard that there were some problems. I had always thought the Mininmi a very nifty squad weapon - though again, I have heard of problems - but isn't the general consensus on the LSW that it should be binned? Is the LSW v Minimi issue perhaps a case of the old line of the SA80(A1/A2) being more accurate than others (but falling down on reliability)? I would argue that a squad weapon with the LSW magazine capacity is not all that good.
 
#54
A drum mag on the LSW would be outrageous. I know a chap who purchased an M16 drum magazine from EBay and fitted it to an LSW. It made the weapon weight a lot but my god could he lay rounds down.
 
#55
Not had a lot of experince with minimi we had 2 to patrol with but never got cleaning kits so couldnt strip gas plug down !
but much nicer weapon to patrol with than the dreaded crow cannon
anyone know anybody who actually likes the lsw ?
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#56
STAB_in_the_dark said:
A drum mag on the LSW would be outrageous. I know a chap who purchased an M16 drum magazine from EBay and fitted it to an LSW. It made the weapon weight a lot but my god could he lay rounds down.
There are three main candidates for drums on AR15/M16 magazine wells, the C-Mag, the 'Firepower' mag (a septic RPK drum copy,) and the ridiculous '90-Rounder.

I imagine this bloke has unusually long arms for an ouangutan.

If he fitted either of the last two onto a 'rifle' or LSW how did he reach the pistol grip, and if using the C-Mag did he use a screwdriver to remove it from the wpn ? Also bringing the wpn to the shoulder tends to be difficult, ie nigh on impossible, as the drums foul on the firer's chest.

Not taking a dig mate, but I'd love to know if there was a drum that was ergonomically viable with this sack of shit, sorry, 'weapon.'
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#57
I@ve seen the drums, the double drum type on an M16 and not quite sure how they would fit with a bullpup design but I suspect fitting it comes first, shooting it second and worrying what you are hitting last.... Rounds down win fire fights, stoppages kill oppo's.

And I would take the LSW A2 over the Minimi happily, bi-pod excepted.
 
#58
Do you fellows have any information about the reliability of the steel 30-round magazines made for the SA80?

Are there significant differences in reliability of magazines produced by different manufacturers?

Any thoughts on how these stack up in comparison to the USGI milspec 30 rounders?
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#59
Ok, this has been covered before in another thread, But here's a short list:


H&K Germany, (steel) - 30 rds
Designed for the H&H G41, works a treat unsurprisingly.

Sterling Arms, UK (steel) - 20, 30 & 40 rds
GREAT mags, if you can get them, use them

US milspec magazines by the following mfgrs (all aluminium):
Adventure Line - 30 rds
Colt - 20 & 30 rds
Cooper Industries - 30 rds
General Stamping - 30 rds
Kay Industries - 30 rds
Parsons Precision Products - 30 rds

This list isn't exhaustive as there are others that may work. Also tried the Ram-Line 30 rd and Thermold 30 rd mags, but there was only one of each of these.

There were no magazine attributable stoppages with the eight types above.

And if you're interested, the H&K mags functioned fine in AR15, AR15A2, M16, M16A1, M16A2, C7 and C8
 

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