SA80 Replacement on the distant horizon ?

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
It came up in the livecast thing I did with 9-hole.
Patreon pays far too much if it can fund a webcam sesh for you with three bints.
 
You can speed up correct technique; it's a lot more difficult to develop/improve technique at maximum speed (as our judo coach points out to us ham-handed beginners).

I found that my overly-static training for three-position smallbore target rifle (think of it as gallery rangework taken to an obsessive-compulsive level), worked extremely well when it came time to do service weapon stuff...
All The This.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
You can speed up correct technique; it's a lot more difficult to develop/improve technique at maximum speed (as our judo coach points out to us ham-handed beginners).

I found that my overly-static training for three-position smallbore target rifle (think of it as gallery rangework taken to an obsessive-compulsive level), worked extremely well when it came time to do service weapon stuff...
An approach that I've been encouraged to follow on everything from shadow-boxing in the mirror, to Krav Maga, to snowboarding.

Get the technique right. Speed will follow.
 
Wax On. Wax Off?
Pretty much. It's the Kata of shooting; demonstrate the Principles of Marksmanship properly, and you'll soon (i.e. most beginners manage it with only ten to twenty hours of training) be consistently hitting the standard smallbore indoor target's 9-ring...

...which is equivalent in size to "Fig.12 at 900m"... (the bullseye is "Fig.12 at 1800m", and plenty of club-level shooters will hit that seven times out of ten). Other advantages of smallbore include cheap ammunition, and rifle barrels that don't wear out after 2000 rounds - which is why it was a mass-participation sport in the runup to WW1 and through WW2. There's still a "Home Guard league" running around here... it just carried on, post war, as a club shoulder-to-shoulder match.

Anyone who thinks that it's easy, is welcome to try their hand in competition. Because if you're competing for the Inter-Services / British / Commonwealth title (outdoors, at 50m), and you make the final? I can guarantee that your heart rate will be somewhere north of 150, regardless of how fit you are (my resting rate is still about 50, blubbery old git that I am). And that is the point of Pamphlet 20, Competition Shooting - if you can't apply the stress of "someone shooting back", teach soldiers to cope with the stress of "everyone's watching, I've just sprinted 100m at full tilt, and there's beer and silverware (or humiliation and pisstake by those tw*ts from B Coy) riding on this" as you run them up the Falling Plates range. If it stops being "exciting"? Find them a higher level of competition.

Seriously, run a falling plates knockout competition as the finale of any range package - the Jocks will love it :)
 
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Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Pretty much. It's the Kata of shooting; demonstrate the Principles of Marksmanship properly, and you'll soon (i.e. most beginners manage it with only ten to twenty hours of training) be consistently hitting the standard smallbore indoor target's 9-ring...

...which is equivalent in size to "Fig.12 at 900m"... (the bullseye is "Fig.12 at 1800m", and plenty of club-level shooters will hit that seven times out of ten). Other advantages of smallbore include cheap ammunition, and rifle barrels that don't wear out after 2000 rounds - which is why it was a mass-participation sport in the runup to WW1 and through WW2. There's still a "Home Guard league" running around here... it just carried on, post war, as a club shoulder-to-shoulder match.

Anyone who thinks that it's easy, is welcome to try their hand in competition. Because if you're competing for the Inter-Services / British / Commonwealth title (outdoors, at 50m), and you make the final? I can guarantee that your heart rate will be somewhere north of 150, regardless of how fit you are (my resting rate is still about 50, blubbery old git that I am). And that is the point of Pamphlet 20, Competition Shooting - if you can't apply the stress of "someone shooting back", teach soldiers to cope with the stress of "everyone's watching, I've just sprinted 100m at full tilt, and there's beer and silverware (or humiliation and pisstake by those tw*ts from B Coy) riding on this" as you run them up the Falling Plates range.

Seriously, run a falling plates knockout competition as the finale of any range package - the Jocks will love it :)
A lesson I learned properly right at the end of Basic.

Up to that point, all shooting had been prone. Then came the inter-platoon competitions and the March & Shoot. The shoot was timed, sub-calibre SLR on a 30m range after going over the assault course at best speed.

I got to the firing point blowing out of my hoop. Whistle goes, I pick up the weapon, fire and miss. Engaged brain, sorted out the sight picture and breathing instead of just blatting away, and started killing clay pigeons whilst thinking, "Hey, this actually bloody works!" I did rather well.

It stuck with me thereafter.
 
If the Army was sensible, which is rare, ITDU at Warminister should be the professional source for both what's going on in the world of Small Arms and what actually works when people are properly trained. This would give the technical background so when the Army decides it needs a new rifle family there is the bulk of the work done

However, that reduces the number of project Sjars for officers....
 
Well, I hope HK work their magic.......... I expect to be disappointed, again.
 
If the Army was sensible, which is rare, ITDU at Warminister should be the professional source for both what's going on in the world of Small Arms and what actually works when people are properly trained. This would give the technical background so when the Army decides it needs a new rifle family there is the bulk of the work done

However, that reduces the number of project Sjars for officers....
One thing the US army has been doing is developing top Army talent to compete in *civilian* dynamic shooting sports.

The lessons learned don't seem to have filtered down to the bottom levels though.

The Finns, with their reserve-based conscription system, officially encourage SRA shooting, which serves as an interface between military and civilian shooting (and is awesome fun). Will ask some of the guys how much of that has filtered back into Army training materials.

The Swiss modernised the military shooting with the "neues Gefechtsschiessen" (new battle shooting), but having seen it being trained a few times, it's pretty village level stuff. At least they abolished some of the dumb sh1t they were teaching back in the 90's like balancing the rifle on the open palm with the fingers pointing along the barrel in the standing position... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
If the Army was sensible, which is rare, ITDU at Warminister should be the professional source for both what's going on in the world of Small Arms and what actually works when people are properly trained. This would give the technical background so when the Army decides it needs a new rifle family there is the bulk of the work done

However, that reduces the number of project Sjars for officers....
Plus what do F****ing Civvies know.......
 
Probably some super laser gun of which the the stores are loath to give you the batteries for...

.............................................. hints of which battle?...........................................
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Someone on a French facebook gun forum posted a picture of an L85 multitool and asked what the "HK 10" stamped on it meant.

Someone replied, unironically and with full Intartubes confidence, that HK stood for "Hand Knob" cos it was a sort of spanner so a hand knob ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
If the Army was sensible, which is rare, ITDU at Warminister should be the professional source for both what's going on in the world of Small Arms and what actually works when people are properly trained.
Funny you should say that, because there was a young infantry officer who won the Queen's Medal, then spent the next decade on the podium (mixed in with the Gurkhas, etc) - in terms of performance, Gus was the most consistent Service Rifle competitor of his era. Go take a look at the ARA boards in the ATSC dining room, next time you're at Bisley...

So of course, they sent him to ITDU to do small-arms stuff (granted, they also sent him to Porton Down, the UDR, etc, etc) and he once mentioned in passing that he'd probably fired 50,000 rounds that year through various weaponry.

Somehow he managed not to get bored with it, and has since managed a medal at a Commonwealth Games in fullbore target rifle. He's very, very good (last time I saw him in the ATSC gun room, he was hand-loading 5.56 for use at long range) and probably the SME for service rifle shooting. Given that he's a couple of years older than me, he's probably retired now...
 
Funny you should say that, because there was a young infantry officer who won the Queen's Medal, then spent the next decade on the podium (mixed in with the Gurkhas, etc) - in terms of performance, Gus was the most consistent Service Rifle competitor of his era. Go take a look at the ARA boards in the ATSC dining room, next time you're at Bisley...

So of course, they sent him to ITDU to do small-arms stuff (granted, they also sent him to Porton Down, the UDR, etc, etc) and he once mentioned in passing that he'd probably fired 50,000 rounds that year through various weaponry.

Somehow he managed not to get bored with it, and has since managed a medal at a Commonwealth Games in fullbore target rifle. He's very, very good (last time I saw him in the ATSC gun room, he was hand-loading 5.56 for use at long range) and probably the SME for service rifle shooting. Given that he's a couple of years older than me, he's probably retired now...
I'm sure he had a lovely time, paid as he was to indulge his forte and hobby.

I'd say the real question unanswered is "what impact did he have on any aspect of operational effectiveness?"

Bear in mind that I shall go to my grave nursing resentment that the southpaw SA80 was strangled in the womb by a charming officer, and very expert shot, from my regiment when he headed ITDU.
 
At least they abolished some of the dumb sh1t they were teaching back in the 90's like balancing the rifle on the open palm with the fingers pointing along the barrel in the standing position... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It depends on what you're trying to achieve... I agree that it's not much use if you're trying to snap shoot a Fig.12 from the standing alert position... but if you're trying to teach "deliberate target shooting using a service rifle" (because it's cheaper than an actual target rifle), it's not necessarily a bad thing. If you look at the current world record holder and Olympic champion, he balances the rifle on his open palm, with his fingers pointing more or less along the barrel in the standing position...

MM63PFZE25KEFNNEN2KO6JCX7Y.jpg


Forcing you to balance the rifle on your hand, makes you less able to "muscle" it on to the target; you have to focus on your body and standing still (eliminating any body sway), and leads to a steadier standing position. Eventually, that steady/relaxed standing position becomes something you can feed back into your snap shooting, because you've now learned how to balance, standing up.

I eventually took to balancing my target rifle on my closed fist, not my open palm; it meant I could bin my palm rest, and was one less thing to carry. Good enough for about 376/400 at my best (which wasn't good enough, I needed to be hitting 385 to be even vaguely competitive).
 
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I'd say the real question unanswered is "what impact did he have on any aspect of operational effectiveness?"
He commanded the Recce Platoon of an Armoured Infantry Battlegroup on Op GRANBY. Did a fair chunk of time on Op BANNER with the UDR in the 90s.

So... not some kind of "excused training" Gladiator, but a working officer with a relevant enthusiasm. I suspect the better question is whether anyone actually asked for, or listened to, his opinions.
 
It depends on what you're trying to achieve... I agree that it's not much use if you're trying to snap shoot a Fig.12 from the standing alert position... but if you're trying to teach "deliberate target shooting using a service rifle" (because it's cheaper than an actual target rifle), it's not necessarily a bad thing. If you look at the current world record holder and Olympic champion, he balances the rifle on his open palm, with his fingers pointing more or less along the barrel in the standing position...

MM63PFZE25KEFNNEN2KO6JCX7Y.jpg


Forcing you to balance the rifle on your hand, makes you less able to "muscle" it on to the target; you have to focus on your body and standing still (eliminating any body sway), and leads to a steadier standing position. Eventually, that steady/relaxed standing position becomes something you can feed back into your snap shooting, because you've now learned how to balance, standing up.

I eventually took to balancing my target rifle on my closed fist, not my open palm; it meant I could bin my palm rest, and was one less thing to carry. Good enough for about 376/400 at my best (which wasn't good enough, I needed to be hitting 385 to be even vaguely competitive).
If the video was on YT I could post it and you'd see what they were trying to achieve and it's completely stupid. They weren't teaching people to shoot standing slowfire for high-level service rifle comps, they were teaching it as *the* technique, doing rapid reloading and stoppage drills and coming in and out of it.
 
If the video was on YT I could post it and you'd see what they were trying to achieve and it's completely stupid. They weren't teaching people to shoot standing slowfire for high-level service rifle comps, they were teaching it as *the* technique, doing rapid reloading and stoppage drills and coming in and out of it.
Shades of Umboto gorge, battling a rampaging horde armed with sharpened guava fruit?
 
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