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SA80 Replacement on the distant horizon ?

Same 20+ years brain and body fade - I guess our paths must have crossed at TASAAM in the 80s. I guess you were with the Jocks (2/51?) - I was 6/7th Queens.
Yup, late 80s / early 90s for me (eventually got my TA50 in 1989). The three ScotDiv teams that used to qualify for TASAM reliably around that era were 2/51 (mostly the Western Isles mob, IIRC, a few Queen's Medallists among them) and 3/51; and either Edinburgh UOTC (someone from the 2/51 team joined, and we started to improve) or 2/52 (once a few of us commissioned).

Those happy days when Service Weapons Week at Bisley meant around a thousand competitors, and several hundred support staff from the RAAT task inf battalion to lift targets, direct traffic, and get dicked for GD. When the QM was threatening to use an Eager Beaver to shift the next c**t to park in front of his store, and everyone was carrying an SLR, an SMG, and all of the slings, magazines, and cleaning kits required for each (utter PITA). Throw in pistol and LMG ancils if you were daft enough to be in both pairs :)

Remember the utter nightmare when it turned out the NRA hadn't deleaded Century Range for several years? Group sizes had shrunk with scoped 5.56 weapons, and rounds started to ricochet from the resulting lumps of lead that had formed; a few Guardsmen got wounded working in the butts, an all-night digging effort failed to resolve it, and we all had to do a Wacky Races impression to Ash Ranges instead... 1988?
 
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Are there any studies comparing our combat marksmanship with that of other nations - and not just our allies?

Would be interesting to see how we compare at say, Section level, individual weapons only, no belt fed / support weapons.
 
Are there any studies comparing our combat marksmanship with that of other nations - and not just our allies?

Would be interesting to see how we compare at say, Section level, individual weapons only, no belt fed / support weapons.
I don’t know if they still do, but at least until a few years ago, Swiss reservists (ie everyone until they reach the end of their Dienstpflicht) had to do a marksmanship test every two years (I think, might have been annual) with their service weapon. If they didn’t pass, they had to pay for their ammunition for any tuition and their re-test(s)
 

TamH70

MIA
Yup, late 80s / early 90s for me (eventually got my TA50 in 1989). The three ScotDiv teams that used to qualify for TASAM reliably around that era were 2/51 (mostly the Western Isles mob, IIRC, a few Queen's Medallists among them) and 3/51; and either Edinburgh UOTC (someone from the 2/51 team joined, and we started to improve) or 2/52 (once a few of us commissioned).

Those happy days when Service Weapons Week at Bisley meant around a thousand competitors, and several hundred support staff from the RAAT task inf battalion to lift targets, direct traffic, and get dicked for GD. When the QM was threatening to use an Eager Beavers to shift the next c**t to park in front of his store, and everyone was carrying an SLR, an SMG, and all of the slings, magazines, and cleaning kits required for each (utter PITA). Throw in pistol and LMG ancils if you were daft enough to be in both pairs :)

Remember the utter nightmare when it turned out the NRA hadn't deleaded Century Range for several years? Group sizes had shrunk with scoped 5.56 weapons, and rounds started to ricochet from the resulting lumps of lead that had formed; a few Guardsmen got wounded working in the butts, an all-night digging effort failed to resolve it, and we all had to do a Wacky Races impression to Ash Ranges instead... 1988?
I don't remember the decamp to Ash ranges but that was my era nevertheless. Old age I guess. Got my TA50 in 94. I also shot for the TA against the ARABs et al in the ARA Centenary match. Still got my TA8 tie.

We did have two of the 2/51 guys transfer to us for a couple of years when Ross? was working down south. Good lad - liked a drink and was happy to share skills (I think he was in a shoot off for the QM one year). I forget his muckers name - he was from Stornaway.

The NRA shoots were lovely - shooting without the bullshit - shooting for yourself basically - a great wind-down from TASAAM (and not much running apart from the Queen Mary shoot :D )

I recall one year doing the deliberate shoot (QM1) with me (buck private then), the TA QM winner (Savides?) and an Omani who spoke FA English - we got on just great having a common interest in shooting.

Happy days.
 
From my point of view, it’s never about money, nearly always about time and attitude.

My biggest concern - and I wonder if it’s the same in the non-teeth arms - is that shooting is viewed by many as a very quick way to be punished and/or face jail time. Therefore, it must be highly regimented and done minimally - ideally not at all. It is never about improving operational capability.
I would have thought that you did all your shooting with a 4.5 inch gun Alf.
 
Are there any studies comparing our combat marksmanship with that of other nations - and not just our allies?

Would be interesting to see how we compare at say, Section level, individual weapons only, no belt fed / support weapons.
Nearest thing would be the old 'Nishan' competition. This was a section level march and shoot competion between central treaty organisation nations. Nations that took part included UK, US, Iran and Pakistan amongst others. I shot it in the 70s and was coached for 4 months by a Queens medalist as our team coach. We used specially selected 'cordal' (spelling?)barrelled SLRs that were Australian manufactured I believe?
 
So,

There I was moodily scowling my way through another thread about high-price, high-tech weaponry, and it occurred to me to wonder if there's any wheeled/tracked/seagoing/aerially delivered weapon system the development, effectiveness, efficiency, reliability, maintenance and improvement of whose platform and target acquisition and fire control software are more neglected than those behind the infantry personal weapon.

"That article, over there" (If I may mis-remember Old Nosey for a moment) is all of the above, has been for a long time, and is likely to remain so for some time yet.
 
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You probably do not want to know how many of our contemporaries are no longer with us - it is a rather long list.
We owe God a death, and he that dies this day is quit for the next

Is not the most inspiring of the Bard's lines, as you get older.

You bow yer head, honour the memories, and learn to live with it.

That's the way.
 
We owe God a death, and he that dies this day is quit for the next

Is not the most inspiring of the Bard's lines, as you get older.

You bow yer head, honour the memories, and learn to live with it.

That's the way.
Absolutely - and it makes for a good session when toasting absent friends. All you Shiney B Diehards - RIP - it was a privilege to serve with you.
 
I would have thought that you did all your shooting with a 4.5 inch gun Alf.

The 4.5” thing is relatively easy.

It’s getting people involved in what it actually means to fire 5.56 and 9mm from a, and in a, ship borne environment. Plunging fire shots, shots from behind fixed ship’s furniture, ultra-close CQB etc etc.

But instead we have the SASC standard tests, which are as much use as tits on fish In the maritime.
 
Re the "plunging fire shots", I recall one of our PSIs telling the dit from NI when 3 rounds hit a doorway just above his head whilst he was taking cover in it. They found out later that the IRA shooter fired from the top of some flats, not appreciating the aim off required for plunging fire. That lesson stayed with me (though I have fortunately never needed to use it in anger).

The aim offs required for different elevations, light levels (light up sights up anyone?) are not taught until you get to sniper training levels. Windage is barely touched on either. As for aim off for firing from different positions - not even considered.

If these considerations were even just mentioned in Skill at Arms lessons, a few squaddies might just take them on board and hence there is a small increase in small arms effectiveness. These factors could even be demonstrated in one lesson on a simulator just to sow the seed.
 
The 4.5” thing is relatively easy.

It’s getting people involved in what it actually means to fire 5.56 and 9mm from a, and in a, ship borne environment. Plunging fire shots, shots from behind fixed ship’s furniture, ultra-close CQB etc etc.

But instead we have the SASC standard tests, which are as much use as tits on fish In the maritime.
I thought that's what you have the booties for. That and to stop the sailors from mutinying and lynching the officers. Isn't the old saying 'never trust a matalot with anything smalling than a four inch gun.
 
Are there any studies comparing our combat marksmanship with that of other nations - and not just our allies?

Would be interesting to see how we compare at say, Section level, individual weapons only, no belt fed / support weapons.
Better than that. The British Army Combat Shooting Team (BACST) occasionally goes across to Fort Benning to compete in the US Army competition (Ex UNCLE SAM) and to Australia to compete in their Army SAAM (Ex WALTZING MATILDA).

ISTR that whenever they were in the US, they tended to pick up a pretty decent haul of silverware.

Note that the Section / Light-role Gun matches produced exactly the result you'd expect, because it was the same as happened at Bisley; whenever you measure "effectiveness" in terms of "ability to put holes in targets, in very quick succession, out to 600m", the L86 scores humped the L4, L7, M60, M240, and M249.

Likewise, the L85 competed rather well against the M-16 of the assembled US Army firers. Reassuring; all the complaints about its ergonomics, and it turns out that under pressure, when speed and accuracy are demanded, the SA80 wasn't at a disadvantage (or, for that matter, the Steyr in the hands of Australians or Omanis)

However, if you want to compare target marksmanship, there's always the CISM. You get to compete against Americans, Germans, and Russians, not that the UK has entered recently...
 
We did have two of the 2/51 guys transfer to us for a couple of years when Ross? was working down south. Good lad - liked a drink and was happy to share skills (I think he was in a shoot off for the QM one year). I forget his muckers name - he was from Stornaway.

Ross! Lovely bloke, great shot. He made Sergeant-Major, last I heard was working with the Guns Platoon. So of course, they won the UKLF MMG competition by some hefty margin (well ahead of the Regular teams, albeit the Reserve rules were 4 guns, not 8?).

Did he tell you about the time he just missed out on the Queen's Medal, turned out he'd shot on the wrong lane during one practice? I thought he'd eventually won the QM, took him a while though...
 
Re the "plunging fire shots", I recall one of our PSIs telling the dit from NI when 3 rounds hit a doorway just above his head whilst he was taking cover in it. They found out later that the IRA shooter fired from the top of some flats, not appreciating the aim off required for plunging fire. That lesson stayed with me (though I have fortunately never needed to use it in anger).

The aim offs required for different elevations, light levels (light up sights up anyone?) are not taught until you get to sniper training levels. Windage is barely touched on either. As for aim off for firing from different positions - not even considered.

If these considerations were even just mentioned in Skill at Arms lessons, a few squaddies might just take them on board and hence there is a small increase in small arms effectiveness. These factors could even be demonstrated in one lesson on a simulator just to sow the seed.

angle shots? Hours of fun.

Hands up who thought they’d never use trigonometry again after they left school?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman's_rule
 
angle shots? Hours of fun.

Hands up who thought they’d never use trigonometry again after they left school?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman's_rule
Good luck trying to do those calculations in the field on a windy rainy day , easier to use Applied Ballistics
or Strelok .

And get one of these
1611570247993.png
 
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