SA80 Replacement on the distant horizon ?

[Stonker]

I'm afraid you're off the mark there.

You should also try reading the paragraph above the bit you quoted. My wider shooting experience aside (which I'm confident is greater than yours), I'm making a specific claim based on personal experience of seeing what an intensive shooting package can do.

I know disingenuous ad hominems and out of context quotes are more to your taste than than reasoned discussion, but maybe try to engage in good faith just this once. It'll make the thread more pleasant and interesting for everyone if you do.

Zzz zzz

Etcetera

 

[Caecilius]

Zzz zzz

Etcetera

So you have nothing to counter my argument? Thanks for making that clear. Again.

 

[Caecilius]

Top up training?

is this for positional shooting, or snap shooting?

Combat shooting, which I suppose you could characterise as a blend of both plus a few other aspects.

 

[Stonker]

So you have nothing to counter my argument? Thanks for making that clear.

Zzzzz

Etcetera

 

[Himmler74]

You're no shooter, clearly.

Neither are you, well maybe once in the early 70’s. Again reinforcing the stereotype that old and bold embittered users of this site peddle. If you have any operational experience in the last 20 years using the rifle let’s hear?

Those dastardly fusiliers have moved on from you days, they actually do training, RaeAL world trading instead of polishing a turd.

Your Twitter feed is amusing.

 

[Himmler74]

Top up training?

is this for positional shooting, or snap shooting?

What would you know either way?

 

[Itainthalfhotmum]

the last MOD stock of new unissued SLR‘s were sold off to the US and German civilian market, early 2000’s.

Well it appears that the UK had 10,000 SLR's in May 2000.

 

[dingerr]

Well it appears that the UK had 10,000 SLR's in May 2000.
View attachment 542352

Everyone makes mistakes.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Apart from being identified as a UK or protectorate what are the issues now? Well apart from @stoatman saying the Parts are being reused from scrap weapons, considering the armed forces have shrunk since the l85 was introduced.

Like I’ve said If there was a requirement for a replacement battle rifle it would have been placed, we as the UK are waiting to see what the USA do, considering we fight there battles more than our own.

Or do you want the army to go down the AJAX, BOXER, WARRIO and CR2 upgrades or replacements.

In the big world small arms isn’t that important considering what we have out shoots most of not all 5.56 battle rifles.

Money is better spent on JPR, improving heavy fires and GBAD.

You’re absolutely right. I couldn’t have put it better myself.

 

[TwoSocksJackson]

Yes and no...

I spent a decade or so, competing at international level in target rifle (as an amateur). Peak performance requires training at fairly high intensity, so you can't keep it up continuously. You also need downtime, and time to bed in any changes to your technique. So; you run long-duration training "macrocycles" around the year, or even Games cycle; short-duration training "microcycIes" to look at performance issues that are day-to day stuff; and mid-duration "mesocycles" that address month-to-month stuff. Everyone trains slightly differently; I was more flexible at planning around "this needs some extra work" (I emphasised microcycles), my pairs partner was more rigid in his "but my month's plan says this" (he emphasised mesocycles). His approach wouldn't work for me, nor mine for him.

I knew that I could "peak" two or three times a year; working to have stable technique, trialled at buildup matches, bedded in and reinforced as you work to the big (predictable) events - at my level, British championships, an international match you hoped to be selected for, etc.

Anyway, the important bit. The "top of your game" isn't just about absolute performance - it's about repeatability. It is absolutely dependent on that background of ongoing training; you can't just hammer it for a couple of weeks beforehand, and cuff it on the day. Everyone remembers the time when they pull an amazing score out of the bag "on the day", everyone forgets all the times that it just didn't work.

That "top of your game" is bringing up the standard of your worst matches to near your best, so that you have confidence that if anything goes differently from planned wrong (say you can feel you're going down with an illness, or you didn't sleep well, or you're worried about the wife's health) you can still graft out a decent score. Been there, done that - big competition, four days after a Scottish pairs record, I started to go down - discussed it with coach, changed the match plan, shot like a donkey, got drugs tested after the match, the Doctor said "they gave you what?" when I declared the broad-spectrum antibiotic that the team medic had handed me.

I was "in the zone" on two occasions when I equalled the British record; once as a bit of a novice, in perfect conditions, everything going well. The second time as I was recovering from viral conjunctivitis, hadn't trained for three weeks, didn't know whether my eyes were going to turn into sandpaper after quarter of an hour, trying out a new variation on my prone position that really f***ing hurt; so I rushed the whole sixty-shot match in under half an hour, finished in agony. Both performances needed that solid foundation of good training.

Thank you for a very informative reply Gravelbelly. Your have definitely provided a lot of food for though as well as showing me how poorly thought out my analogy was.

That is to say; from an infantry training point of view I am on the right track but I need to find a better way of explaining my thoughts to the rest of the group.

(Or I might just shut up and let Caecilius do the talking )

 

[Gravelbelly]

Sure, competition level shooting takes years to hone but a certain level of combat shooting can be achieved relatively quickly.

Absolutely.

Ten to twenty hours of good training, and you can give someone the principles and training tools to be a damn good shot. Teach a man to fish, and all that. I'd reckon that gets a club-level shooter to the point where (with a prone supported position) they can group to 25m target that is proportional to a Fig.11 at 900m, half the time, given a flat calm and all the time in the world (NSRA 9-ring)

But that's just the ability to hold a rifle steady for the quarter-second between "your brain decides to fire" and "the muscles move your trigger-finger" (human reaction time). The bad news, of course, is that most firers have a strong mental image of "sight picture when they decided to fire", and not of "sight picture a quarter-second later when it went bang". That's what follow-through is actually about - holding the weapon steady for that critical quarter-second.

What about wind? Range estimation? Firing from other positions? These take practice. Maybe another twenty to forty hours to get the basic skills bedded in, and then a fairly low of skill maintenance training to prevent skill fade. But it's risky. Sure, you might be able to build up skills in a short burst of pre-deployment training - but the available time depends on readiness levels. Some skills take more work to maintain than others; and what of the risk that you're just reinforcing bad habits for a couple of years? It's harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn correct ones.

And coaching? That "short PDT" needs to involve skilled coaches if it's to achieve efficiency, and you'll need a lot of them. One per section? More? How do you keep your coaches trained and current, without giving them firers to coach?

I suspect that while what you describe is workable for small units at high readiness with access to lots of support staff; it's less workable for battalions who have to train from within their own resources unless they maintain a steady amount of range time and coaching. Which means you might as well do the range time...

 

[Caecilius]

And coaching? That "short PDT" needs to involve skilled coaches if it's to achieve efficiency, and you'll need a lot of them. One per section? More? How do you keep your coaches trained and current, without giving them firers to coach?

I suspect that while what you describe is workable for small units at high readiness with access to lots of support staff; it's less workable for battalions who have to train from within their own resources unless they maintain a steady amount of range time and coaching. Which means you might as well do the range time...

My experience is that a shortish burst of training works well, although you make a good point that these constraints are significant. I agree that this would be impossible from within a battalion's own resources, although I suspect a cadre of coaches could be created for PDT if we wanted to take this seriously. The number of coaches needed to get a brigade through PDT in relatively short order wouldn't be astronomical. It would take investment though, which means it'll never happen.

For me, the big problem with our shooting isn't so much the time we get on ranges, it's how it's used. We start by going through PAM21 controlled shoots on a flat range, never meaningfully against the clock and with almost zero movement. From there, we jump immediately into LFTT. There's a middle bit missing between the flat range process of learning/practicing the basic principles, and LFTT where we apply those skills in a realistic-ish combat scenario. Where's the sprinting 50m to the firing point then seeing how much you can hit at 100/200m? Where are the CQB shoots using a shot timer? Where, for that matter, is the practice against moving targets rather than static fig. 11s?

We don't allow for a gradual progression of training and seem to assume that the marksmanship principles practiced in ideal conditions on a gallery range will be readily applied by someone breathing out their hoop and standing waist-deep in a Brecon stream.

 

[dingerr]

We don't allow for a gradual progression of training and seem to assume that the marksmanship principles practiced in ideal conditions on a gallery range will be readily applied by someone breathing out their hoop and standing waist-deep in a Brecon stream.

That’s because it‘s seen as a pain in the arse by most. At the very least soldiers should be accepting it as part of the routine.

 

[par avion]

While not military, i had a station OIC that was a firearms instructor that organised fortnightly shoots. This allowed every shift to shoot monthly. We gave up one day off a month to shoot and he organised the range, instructors, targets and all the ammo we wanted. Everyone made the time to attend as much as possible.

It wasn't just standard range shooting. We would start with the basic static shoots and work our way through fire and movement turning target shoot no shoot scenarios. Left and right handed.

All the other postings i had it was just the minimum 2 qualification shoots a year and then down to only yearly. The difference in confidence in yourself and your partner was amazing.

Well you never know when Ned Kelly is going to get a bit uppity again do you.

 

[par avion]

Well it appears that the UK had 10,000 SLR's in May 2000.
View attachment 542352

Apparently the rifles used in Bloody Sunday in Londonderry ended up in Sierra Leonne. A bit embarrasing for the army to explain when the RUC/PSNI asked where they were as they wanted to do new forensic tests on them.

 

[dingerr]

Apparently the rifles used in Bloody Sunday in Londonderry ended up in Sierra Leonne. A bit embarrasing for the army to explain when the RUC/PSNI asked where they were as they wanted to do new forensic tests on them.

More embarrassing for the RUC for failing to secure evidence.

 

[par avion]

More embarrassing for the RUC for failing to secure evidence.

I suppose the RUC must have been pretty much out of the game in January 1972 but that is a good point.

 

[Mike Barton]

More embarrassing for the RUC for failing to secure evidence.

The RUC had ceased to exist by the time any criminal investigation was initiated regarding Bloody Sunday. ISTR the rifles were being held by the MoD in Donnington and the Saville Inquiry asked the West Mercia Constabulary to secure them for the purposes of the Inquiry, the West Mercia police faced obstruction by MoD officials and several of the rifles were destroyed or sold off, some ending up in Sierra Leone.

Nothing to do with the RUC or the PSNI or indeed at the time with evidence in any criminal investigation.

 

[Cromarty]

the future replacement is all Gucci with rails and telescopic/folding stocks it will look daft IMHO. Perhaps the return of the SLR or No4's for ceremonial use. IIRC don't the diggers still use the SLR for ceremonial work.

Yes, the ADF Tri-service Federation Guard use That Rifle.

 

[Cromarty]

Well you never know when Ned Kelly is going to get a bit uppity again do you.

Yep, gotta be ready for those dastardly bush rangers and drop bears.