SA80 Replacement on the distant horizon ?

[Stonker]

That really is shocking. Part of that is the Q system does not like demanding, holding, issueing or returning Ammo.

But the biggest problem is that the G3 chain doesn't give a flying fvck.

At any level.

 

[PhotEx]

Shame is that - bizarrely - professional infantry are denied the same opportunity.

It’s always struck as somewhat strange, that hobby shooters get to put more rounds downrange in a month, than most professionals, for which a rifle is the primary tool of their trade, will do in a career.

in shooting, practice does indeed make perfect, and HM armed forces simply don’t practice anything like enough.

 

[Himmler74]

Evening SPOTY , are you sober ? I`ve never claimed to have any SA80 experience and only judge it from what those who have say , I do have experience with numerous other rifles however.

Operational. Ad Homs in the serious part of the site is a no go.

 

[Himmler74]

On the SA80? None. But neither am I criticising it, like some.

I've made the point that later versions work well, earlier version didn't work as well, related the experience of several Paras I met who used the first ones, and related some of the development issues such as value-engineering. I've added some comments on manufacturing capabilities and others on the application of marksmanship principles which are based on documented studies and some personal experience.

What's your point?

My point is it is your opinion based on other people’s experience.
Like most who have carried and used the weapon over the last 20 years it has been effective.

 

[Stonker]

It’s always struck as somewhat strange, that hobby shooters get to put more rounds downrange in a month, than most professionals, for which a rifle is the primary tool of their trade, will do in a career.

in shooting, practice does indeed make perfect, and HM armed forces simply don’t practice anything like enough.

If you were CGS I would find your belated recognition of this phenomenon encouraging.

Since you aren't CGS, your belated recognition of it holds little value.

Soz.

 

[bigeye]

It’s always struck as somewhat strange, that hobby shooters get to put more rounds downrange in a month, than most professionals, for which a rifle is the primary tool of their trade, will do in a career.

in shooting, practice does indeed make perfect, and HM armed forces simply don’t practice anything like enough.

Hobby shooters buy their rounds.

Possibly soldiers could be given the opportunity of paying for their additional ammunition - similar to a PAYD scheme. This would have the benefit of ensuring they try a bit harder on the range. No lillygagging when the the cost of the brass has come out of your own pocket.

Finance deals would be available to those that live fire guided weapons.

 

[wasteofrations2]

It only needs a change in attitude. The cost of the ammunition is irrelevant. The Army probably bins more 5.56mm & 7.62mm than it fires currently. All perfectly serviceable, but once it has lost it’s identity it has to be binned.

Commanders have to have the attitude of making shooting a priority and cut away much of the other crap that prevents range time.

What? Do actual training instead of a room inspection? Are you mad?

 

[Gravelbelly]

There was a vid doing the rounds on Facebook which illustrated this point exactly. IIRC it was 1 Scots doing jungle training, live fire contact drills on jungle lanes. Some of the guys had L85's and some had C8's. They were demonstrating a "contact front", where they'd engage targets, apply safety, peg it back and the next 2 would take over. Rinse and repeat.

There was a noticable difference in the speed between the guys doing it with the 2 different rifles

That sounds as if the blokes with the C8s had done more live-fire jungle ranges than the blokes with the L85s, and were more sure of themselves and their weapon handling.

You don't think they might have come from different units, do you?

Because my perception of the L85 safety catch was that I wasn't any slower than I had been with the SLR, and I was faster than with the SMG (mainly because I was a teenager, it was my first LFTT shoot, and it was "use your left hand and your eyes, and make f***ing certain it's in the right place, that Small Metal Gun is lethal" - just a touch too easy to knock it forward from S past R to A if you used your right thumb in the other direction)

 

[Stonker]

This would have the benefit of ensuring they try a bit harder on the range. No lillygagging when the the cost of the brass has come out of your own pocket.

My great-grandad was of the generation that literally shot for their pay.

Qualify as a marksman (check out Musketry Regulations from the early 1900s and you'll soon suss that was a tougher prospect than it became in the latter part of the century) and you got extra pay.

I wonder what happened to COs if their Battalion could not show a sufficient complement of paid marksmen?

And - come 1914 - you'd not wish to have on your flank a Battalion commanded by such a man.

 

[Cold_Collation]

My point is it is your opinion based on other people’s experience.
Like most who have carried and used the weapon over the last 20 years it has been effective.

Which is what I've said throughout.

The vast majority of what I've said relates to manufacture and other issues.

 

[wasteofrations2]

You are clearly The One.

As in "There's always one"​

There can be only one.


I have read this thread with interest. Never served civilians getting a massive c***stand about a military rifle that they have little, if any, experience of.And the comments about weapon handling. As a Skill At Arms instructor, I have seen some truly appaling weapon handling. I had to step in to prevent an RAF corporal having an ND at a loading bay in Iraq on one occasion. I have also watched civvies on the range and again, some of the weapon handling was absolutely abysmal. Weapons pointing in all directions, fingers on triggers and how the frack do you clear a weapon with the magazine still fitted? And stand by for the award for stating the bleeding obvious, but there is a mahoosive world of difference between shooting for a hobby, and doing it for a living. Just my opinion, FWIW.
Anyway, a replacement for SA80? After all the cash that has been thrown at it, I can't see it happening for at least ten years.

 

[Kitmarlowe]

That really is shocking. Part of that is the Q system does not like demanding, holding, issueing or returning Ammo.

As a UAS I have no problem with people bringing back ammo from ranges, as long as it's packed back into the cartoons correctly and you've managed to make sure each cartoon is full or correctly marked

The problem is those twats who come round and inspect Ammo Bunkers and kick off because I have 2 or 3 open H83 boxes with some random number marked on the lid with the word FRAC written on it as per the book.

Those twats are the problem as they write petty little whinny bitch reports about how I'm not storing ammo correctly the little shits.

 

[Gravelbelly]

Same here.

There are no small arms experts in the mainstream army, least of all in the SASC.

Wrong. Not many, but not zero. And while it's fun to poke the Fun Police, they do have some quite capable coaches in there*

Go into the dining room of the Army Club at Bisley; they've got big boards with a record of the Queen's Medal winner (and runners up) since it started. There's an infantry officer who appeared on the board, just about every year for over a decade (he won it twice).

They posted him to ITDU as a Staff Officer, where at one point (he reckoned) he was firing 50 to 60 thousand rounds a year through service weapons. I've seen him handloading 5.56 for use in long range target rifle, to those who worry about the effective range of the round; and he's now competed (and won a medal) shooting fullbore at a Commonwealth Games.

Yes, the tour at ITDU was a rare act of sanity, followed by a posting to Porton Down, but I was shocked that the Army was showing sense... mind you, he must be retiring about now.


*It made me laugh when one of the SASC long-service types I know arrived in civvy life, to run all of the range certification and training for a national governing body. Someone asked nicely, so he rejoined as a reservist - and then someone else decided that thirty solid years of qualification and experience is all very well, sonny-boy, but your two years of civvy stuff doing the same thing doesn't count as continuous, you've lapsed, you'll have to redo every single one of your qualifications.

AIUI the gap between him "resitting his SA(B)90" and "instructor on the next SA(A)90 course" was measured in weeks, not months. Bet that course bid was fun - "F***ing hell, Ali, what are you doing on my course, you were my DS ten years ago!"

 

[Bravo_Bravo]

Why do you need another 5.56mm rifle? What is significantly better that it is worth the buy?

That was pretty much what I was asking.

 

[bigeye]

There can be only one.


I have read this thread with interest. Never served civilians getting a massive c***stand about a military rifle that they have little, if any, experience of.And the comments about weapon handling. As a Skill At Arms instructor, I have seen some truly appaling weapon handling. I had to step in to prevent an RAF corporal having an ND at a loading bay in Iraq on one occasion. I have also watched civvies on the range and again, some of the weapon handling was absolutely abysmal. Weapons pointing in all directions, fingers on triggers and how the frack do you clear a weapon with the magazine still fitted? And stand by for the award for stating the bleeding obvious, but there is a mahoosive world of difference between shooting for a hobby, and doing it for a living. Just my opinion, FWIW.
Anyway, a replacement for SA80? After all the cash that has been thrown at it, I can't see it happening for at least ten years.

A bit rude at the top there - but ho hum.
As a matter of interest what weapon was the RAF bloke about to discharge accidentally and how did you know it was about to happen?

 

[Stonker]

Wrong. Not many, but not zero. And while it's fun to poke the Fun Police, they do have some quite capable coaches in there*

If they have capable coaches,who benefits from their skills?

If their skills are confined to shooting on flat ranges, where's our reservoir of deep experience of combat shooting and ancillary skills?

It ain't the SASC, and shure as shiite it ain't to be found in mainstream infantry units.

 

[Stonker]

As a matter of interest what weapon was the RAF bloke about to discharge accidentally and how did you know it was about to happen?

Small arm in RAF hands = mahoosive Combat Indicator for imminent ND?!

 

[dingerr]

As a UAS I have no problem with people bringing back ammo from ranges, as long as it's packed back into the cartoons correctly and you've managed to make sure each cartoon is full or correctly marked

The problem is those twats who come round and inspect Ammo Bunkers and kick off because I have 2 or 3 open H83 boxes with some random number marked on the lid with the word FRAC written on it as per the book.

Those twats are the problem as they write petty little whinny bitch reports about how I'm not storing ammo correctly the little shits.

Nope. You’re going to need better bait.

 

[wasteofrations2]

A bit rude at the top there - but ho hum.
As a matter of interest what weapon was the RAF bloke about to discharge accidentally and how did you know it was about to happen?

Never seen Highlander?
A2, and she cocked it instead of taking the mag off.

 

[Caecilius]

There was me thinking any decent officer would want his section to be the best at soldiering they could and would go out of their way to ensure so, sad state of affairs.

They do. The system makes it unnecessarily difficult to do that with shooting, although that's gradually changing for the better.

This is the British army we are talking about, where would that come on Caecilius's OJAR? Otherwise he doesn't give a toss.

I know that's the kind of officership you're used to from your time at Armoury/Leighton House, but kindly don't assume it's universal. Away from those waltier bits of the TA, people are actually interested in doing a good job and soldiering properly.

Of course there are officers out there who are only interested in their OJAR, but its a small minority.