SA80 Replacement on the distant horizon ?

No one at MoD is going to sign off on every squaddie having 100 rounds per week, every wee
They might,just, if what they bought were actually consumed.

It never is.

Factors underlying failure to consume unit allocations are neither complex,nor expensive to resolve.

Nobody addresses them.
 
Looking at the number of users of the C8 around the world - not just 43 Cdo and RM CP teams - I would hazard a guess that it would not be too expensive, plus it has already been accepted by those two units and IIRC SF - isn't this the direction of travel?

Or is a new round more desirable?

Why do you need another 5.56mm rifle? What is significantly better that it is worth the buy?
 
, Looks in, see the majority have not used the rifle on ops, those same people criticise the rifle.
@stoatman
@Cold_Collation
@Stonker
@CptDanjou

What is your operational experience on the rifle?

Again and again we get users of equipment that is in service pushed aside, ignored for different narratives that don’t exist in service, by those that used those systems in “safe areas”.
Evening SPOTY , are you sober ? I`ve never claimed to have any SA80 experience and only judge it from what those who have say , I do have experience with numerous other rifles however.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Looks in, see the majority have not used the rifle on ops, those same people criticise the rifle.
@stoatman
@Cold_Collation
@Stonker
@CptDanjou

What is your operational experience on the rifle?

Again and again we get users of equipment that is in service pushed aside, ignored for different narratives that don’t exist in service, by those that used those systems in “safe areas”.
On the SA80? None. But neither am I criticising it, like some.

I've made the point that later versions work well, earlier version didn't work as well, related the experience of several Paras I met who used the first ones, and related some of the development issues such as value-engineering. I've added some comments on manufacturing capabilities and others on the application of marksmanship principles which are based on documented studies and some personal experience.

What's your point?
 
The bottomline is cost, always has been, always will be. No one at MoD is going to sign off on every squaddie having 100 rounds per week, every week, not even 50 rounds per week I'd wager.

It only needs a change in attitude. The cost of the ammunition is irrelevant. The Army probably bins more 5.56mm & 7.62mm than it fires currently. All perfectly serviceable, but once it has lost it’s identity it has to be binned.

Commanders have to have the attitude of making shooting a priority and cut away much of the other crap that prevents range time.
 
Why do you need another 5.56mm rifle? What is significantly better that it is worth the buy?
Right now, probably nothing.

When SA80 reaches end of life, and if we're still saddled with 5.56mm as the mandatory calibre, there's a whole range to choose from, none of which will offer a game changing improvement over SA80.

Changing the calibre would change the conversation, but I doubt I will live long enough* to see that happen.

* STONKERNOTE: I'll be 66 on Paddy's Day, should you want to start a countdown.
 
And the pistol. Do more training with the pistol, I learned more in 30 minutes with an SF soldier racking and tapping than I did in the rest of my career, unfortunately we didn’t get any range time so I might as well have thrown it at the enemy.
 
The point being that just pointing the weapon in the general direction and pulling the trigger achieved nothing.

A moment or two more taken to gain a proper sight, sight alignment and breathing (even whilst blowing out of one's hoop), on the other hand...

I'll always remember thinking, 'Bloody hell! It all works!"

T'were the days of That Rifle, mind. No full auto.

I apply the marksmanship principles all the time. The more often you consciously and repetitively practice all the elements and then put them together the better they come together when time and accuracy are critical.

I have a mate who is in the top ten PRS (sniper type shooting) competitors in the US. Every evening he does a minimum of 100 repetitions of standing and dropping to the prone position and sighting in on a target. He is doing everything apart from the The shot must be released and followed through.

Likewise I will do a hundred repetitions of drawing from the holster and sight on a target (a map pin in the wall actually) and squeeze the trigger. Not completely the same as the mechanics of actually doing the full cycle including the bangy part, but it builds, and reinforces muscle memory on everything leading up to the bang.

I have proven to myself, and others that deliberate application of the marksmanship principles work when you want to hit a target. There are other things around the principles which you need to tack on, like drawing from a holster, speed reloads, and weak hand shooting but once you have the pistol out and on its way to the target the only thing that matters is the marksmanship principles.

He goes on a bit, but he introduced what I consider to be my benchmark test of me doing ok. It is the essence of having to put all the principles in a row, and do it all perfectly for two very rapid, aimed shots.


My absolute best, and it was a moment when the force and I came together, the thing was a blur even to me, 1.78 sec's. I normally get around 1.9'ish.
 
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I apply the marksmanship principles all the time. The more often you consciously and repetitively practice all the elements and then put them together the better they come together when time and accuracy are critical.

I have a mate who is in the top ten PRS (sniper type shooting) competitors in the US. Every evening he does a minimum of 100 repetitions of standing and dropping to the prone position and sighting in on a target. He is doing everything apart from the The shot must be released and followed through.

Likewise I will do a hundred repetitions of drawing from the holster and sight on a target (a map pin in the wall actually) and squeeze the trigger. Not completely the same as the mechanics of actually doing the full cycle including the bangy part, but it builds, and reinforces muscle memory on everything leading up to the bang.

I have proven to myself, and others that deliberate application of the marksmanship principles work when you want to hit a target. There are other things around the principles which you need to tack on, like drawing from a holster, speed reloads, and weak hand shooting but once you have the pistol out and on its way to the target the only thing that matters is the marksmanship principles.

He goes on a bit, but he introduced what I consider to be my benchmark test of me doing ok. It is the essence of having to put all the principles in a row and do it all perfectly for two very rapid, aimed shots.


My absolute best, and it was a moment when the force and I came together, the thing was a blur even to me., 1.78 sec's. I normally get around 1.9'ish.

That’s nice dear. Sounds like you have a wonderful time playing with your guns.
 
I apply the marksmanship principles all the time. The more often you consciously and repetitively practice all the elements and then put them together the better they come together when time and accuracy are critical.

I have a mate who is in the top ten PRS (sniper type shooting) competitors in the US. Every evening he does a minimum of 100 repetitions of standing and dropping to the prone position and sighting in on a target. He is doing everything apart from the The shot must be released and followed through.

Likewise I will do a hundred repetitions of drawing from the holster and sight on a target (a map pin in the wall actually) and squeeze the trigger. Not completely the same as the mechanics of actually doing the full cycle including the bangy part, but it builds, and reinforces muscle memory on everything leading up to the bang.

I have proven to myself, and others that deliberate application of the marksmanship principles work when you want to hit a target. There are other things around the principles which you need to tack on, like drawing from a holster, speed reloads, and weak hand shooting but once you have the pistol out and on its way to the target the only thing that matters is the marksmanship principles.

He goes on a bit, but he introduced what I consider to be my benchmark test of me doing ok. It is the essence of having to put all the principles in a row and do it all perfectly for two very rapid, aimed shots.


My absolute best, and it was a moment when the force and I came together, the thing was a blur even to me., 1.78 sec's. I normally get around 1.9'ish.
Same applies to long weapons. But you have to find yer target first.

Particularly challenging if he was the one who opened fire.
 
Shame is that - bizarrely - professional infantry are denied the same opportunity.

The like is for writing the comment, not the fact that they are denied the opportunity.
 
Shame is that - bizarrely - professional infantry are denied the same opportunity.

That really is shocking. Part of that is the Q system does not like demanding, holding, issueing or returning Ammo.
 

Faded

Old-Salt
We used the A3 on an exercise, despite it being slightly more accurate at longer ranges we had numerous problems with it and went back to using the A2 on return. To be fair without the issues it did seem better.

We seem to spend a lot of time faffing over the individual weapon but I imagine most time/money is spent repairing company support weapons that are even older and the aging vehicle fleet. Is that not more of a priority?

Personally I'd rather better night vision capability (both HMNVS and for weapons) but that ain’t gonna make me look gucci on Instagram….
 

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