SA80 Replacement on the distant horizon ?

[Stonker]

A variety of factors, mostly the amount of policy and paperwork involved making it unnecessarily difficult to book range time and ammo.

Symptom, not cause.

Root cause is near-universal officer disinterest in skill at arms, with a resultant failure to comprehend how to make competent battle shots, much less to take an interest in finding remedies to the (not very complex) administrative issues that somehow conspire to prevent the simple bringing together of soldiers, with weapons and ammo, at a range, as a matter of normal military routine.

 

[CptDanjou]

Symptom, not cause.

Root cause is near-universal officer disinterest in skill at arms, with a resultant failure to comprehend how to make competent battle shots, much less to take an interest in finding remedies to the (not very complex) administrative issues that somehow conspire to prevent the bringing together of soldiers, with weapons and ammo, at a range, as a matter of normal routine.

There was me thinking any decent officer would want his section to be the best at soldiering they could and would go out of their way to ensure so, sad state of affairs.

 

[slick]

Given the amount of debt the UK will be in for the foreseeable future, and the normal procurement practice of lowest cost regardless of quality, looks like you lot will be getting the Norinco QBZ97, currently about £500 per unit.

 

[Stonker]

There was me thinking any decent officer would want his section to be the best at soldiering they could and would go out of their way to ensure so, sad state of affairs.

I wish.

There are no effective promotional incentives to bring this about, and some well established cultural attitudes to be overcome (fat chance!) before that could be remedied.

 

[QRK2]

There was me thinking any decent officer would want his section to be the best at soldiering they could and would go out of their way to ensure so, sad state of affairs.

This is the British army we are talking about, where would that come on Caecilius's OJAR? Otherwise he doesn't give a toss.

 

[slick]

See numerous posts referring to studies done on marksmanship.

Perception, even from many infantry types with lots of sand on their boots: lots of rounds down is best.

Reality from studies: target identification and aimed shots.

You can almost see the chap who specified that the SLR was to be issued in semi auto only with a big smirk on his face, having a "Told you so" moment

 

[Stonker]

This is the British army we are talking about, where would that come on Caecilius's OJAR? Otherwise he doesn't give a toss.

The very measure of the species, indeed

 

[righthandmarker]

Lofty Large, ex-Glosters and SAS, was at the Battle of the Imjin River, where he was captured by the Chinese.

He was very critical of the continued use of bolt-action rifles when the opposition was liberally equipped with automatic weapons.

Whether it would have made a difference at the Imjin is probably moot; the Glosters faced ridiculous odds. That said, Large was 10 times the soldier I ever was with many, many years’ experience.

Every time we talk small arms, the issue of spray and pray comes up. Studies have been counter-intuitive, with aimed shots shown to be far more effective - whatever the psychological effect and impressions of those with often considerable experience.

Funny you should mention that. Certainly with Telic, where a lot of the contacts were generally in a more 'urban' environment compared with Herrick, I'm 100% convinced the allied casualty rate was massively reduced as a result of the lack of marksmanship principles displayed by the opposition. Overall it gave the impression that if one was to get hit it would be the result of bad luck as opposed to being in the sights of a steely eyed dealer if death.

 

[Stonker]

You can almost see the chap who specified that the SLR was to be issued in semi auto only with a big smirk on his face, having a "Told you so" moment

Meanwhile, the German dudes who gave the world the first assault rifle (StG43? MP44?, I forget the correct designation) would be standing at the back of the room, with Sgt Kalashnikov, all sniggering at him . . .

 

[Stonker]

Overall it gave the impression that if one was to get hit it would be the result of bad luck as opposed to being in the sights of a steely eyed dealer if death.

I bet the opposition will have reached a similar opinion, based on experience at the other end of the same 2 way ranges.

 

[slick]

Meanwhile, the German dudes who gave the world the first assault rifle (StG43? MP44?, I forget the correct designation) would be standing at the back of the room, with Sgt Kalashnikov, all sniggering at him . . .

Depends how long the room is....

 

[Cold_Collation]

Funny you should mention that. Certainly with Telic, where a lot of the contacts were generally in a more 'urban' environment compared with Herrick, I'm 100% convinced the allied casualty rate was massively reduced as a result of the lack of marksmanship principles displayed by the opposition. Overall it gave the impression that if one was to get hit it would be the result of bad luck as opposed to being in the sights of a steely eyed dealer if death.

It came home to me on my first march-and-shoot, of all things.

Doing the assault course, the sprint to the 30m range at the end and a timed shoot. Got there and blatted off a round at the targets - clay pigeons. Bugger-all happened. Then, apply marksmanship principles. Funnily enough, the clays started disintegrating.

 

[Stonker]

Depends how long the room is....

Any size, for the purpose of metaphor.

For combat purposes, roughly 300m would be right. An infantry assault rifle that isn't sufficiently lethal at that range is underpowered.

One whose ammunition is (theoretically) lethal much beyond that is overpowered, and its ammo heavier than need be.

Optimum calibre would seem to be circa 7mm.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Any size, for the purpose of metaphor.

For combat purposes, roughly 300m would be right. An infantry assault rifle that isn't sufficiently lethal at that range is underpowered.

One whose ammunition is (theoretically) lethal much beyond that is overpowered, and its ammo heavier than need be.

Optimum calibre would seem to be circa 7mm.

...so what we were were saying 70-some years ago. Or people are saying about 6.8 now.

 

[Stonker]

Got there and blatted off a round at the targets - clay pigeons

Interesting exposition of the marksmanship principles.

Just as well them clays weren't Python fans.

Imagine if they'd watched the sketch "How Not To Be Seen".

 

[Cold_Collation]

Interesting exposition of the marksmanship principles.

Just as well them clays weren't Python fans.

Imagine if they'd watched the sketch "How Not To Be Seen".

The point being that just pointing the weapon in the general direction and pulling the trigger achieved nothing.

A moment or two more taken to gain a proper sight, sight alignment and breathing (even whilst blowing out of one's hoop), on the other hand...

I'll always remember thinking, 'Bloody hell! It all works!"

T'were the days of That Rifle, mind. No full auto.

 

[Stonker]

...so what we were were saying 70-some years ago. Or people are saying about 6.8 now.

Like I said: circa 7mm.

Long discussion with input from @ugly on the thread "Realities of HERRICK" is my guide here

 

[Effendi]

A variety of factors, mostly the amount of policy and paperwork involved making it unnecessarily difficult to book range time and ammo.

I think it has more to do with ammunition entitlements (cost) that units manage to justify and receive rather than excessive paperwork. Rather, the problem is the ammunition entitlements received by ordinary units - paperwork, especially nowadays is just a matter of cut and paste date changing, and a risk plan is a risk plan be it tomorrow, next week, or next month.

In the past I worked with units that had an on paper entitlement to around 10k rounds per man, per month, if they wanted it. That along with their standing range bookings saw all available personnel attending three perma-booked range sessions per week. Most of those personnel got through more ammo in a morning than most squaddies would get through in a year.

The bottomline is cost, always has been, always will be. No one at MoD is going to sign off on every squaddie having 100 rounds per week, every week, not even 50 rounds per week I'd wager. As a civvy shooter I know my fullbore shooting skill degrades after 5 days, no matter how much airpistol, or dri-firing I do. I also know that a half meaningful practice needs at least a hundred rounds thrown down range.

 

[Joshua Slocum]

Will all of the then surplus weapons be sold off to some failed African state ?
or will they gradually phase a new weaponin and scrap the old ones ?

 

[Himmler74]

Looks in, see the majority have not used the rifle on ops, those same people criticise the rifle.
@stoatman
@Cold_Collation
@Stonker
@CptDanjou

What is your operational experience on the rifle?

Again and again we get users of equipment that is in service pushed aside, ignored for different narratives that don’t exist in service, by those that used those systems in “safe areas”.