SA80 Replacement on the distant horizon ?

[TwoSocksJackson]

I am indeed well aware that the personal weapon with which I was issued between 1973 and and 1986 was single shot only

You were issued with a Martini–Henry in 73?!

You lucky devil you

 

[Harry Skinters]

No, as said elsewhere, I am a bin man who just knows some people in the pub who have served.

Thank you for your reduced service.

 

[Stonker]

People will do in combat what they've done in training. It's the whole point of training

I've seen it labelled as 'overlearned response' (20(+) years ago now, could be labelled differently by modern psychology)

Thinking was that under stress you are likely to fall back on the drills that you were first taught, because they will almost certainly have been hammered into you in a way that later learning won't.

Was thought to have been a causal factor in several early 1980s skydiving fatalities where jumpers using unfamiliar rigs experienced a malfunction, but carried out emergency drills for a different/more familiar set up.

Example: Australian-made gear commonly required a single pull with the right hand to separate jumper from malfunctioning main AND actuate the reserve. UK/European/US standard was one pull to cut away, another to actuate reserve. Aussie borrows rig in UK, has a malfunction first time he jumps it, neatly cuts away, resumes the stable spread freefall position and spanks in some in seconds later, reserve ripcord on left of harness untouched. Thruxton DZ, IIRC.

 

[Stonker]

You were issued with a Martini–Henry in 73?!

You lucky devil you

You are clearly The One.

As in "There's always one"​

 

[CptDanjou]

1. You can't learn to shoot any weapon well, if you only shoot a handful of times in a year.

a. Let alone learn to be a decent battle shot - that calls for ancillary skills, not least of which is locating a thoroughly uncooperative enemy.​

​

2. Terminal effect of 7.62 is arguably excessive for a modern infantry rifle. Recoil certainly is, for an assault rifle at any rate - and yes, I am indeed well aware that the personal weapon with which I was issued between 1973 and and 1986 was single shot only



3. Which is excellent news: although many would argue (many based on recent sandy experience) that the terminal effects of 5.56 are insufficient at the extremity of its nominal effective range of SA80, which is disappointing.

4. Caveats in Para 1 and 1a apply equally to all infantry small arms users. Can't locate your enemy - then you're simply missing him with a higher degree of (in)accuracy to no good effect.

@Bubbles_Barker - Thank you for seeking my input

Very true , from what I hear current Squaddies get little range time , I dont get why not , as a civvy I shoot nearly every week up to 200m off hand and long range prone etc , if I take a couple of weeks out it shows and takes a session or two to get back to where I was before.

Re calibres 5.56 v 7.62 its not just about hitting power , other considerations are weight of ammunition , ie carrying 500 rnds of one or the other in the field , recoil , most people shoot more accurately with lower recoil rifles , further development of 5.56 ammunition would increase its lifespan in service .

Accuracy / reliability improvements of current rifles (C8 / M4 family not the SA80) would also extend their serviceable life as would better quality optics ,then there's training , is there any point issuing rifles with longer range capability if most users cant shoot their current rifle to its limits?

 

[Bravo_Bravo]

Looking at the number of users of the C8 around the world - not just 43 Cdo and RM CP teams - I would hazard a guess that it would not be too expensive, plus it has already been accepted by those two units and IIRC SF - isn't this the direction of travel?

Or is a new round more desirable?

 

[Themanwho]

Which could all be based on common components.

That's just crazy talk!!!!

 

[Effendi]

Just adding my bit...I find cocking the AR type platform really awkward...

With the added bonus that because you cock it by pulling the handle back over the butt stock you cannot have a built up butt to give a good cheek weld. To compensate for this when firing you tend to raise the butt up so that the toe only is sort of resting where the whole butt should be.

 

[CptDanjou]

With the added bonus that because you cock it by pulling the handle back over the butt stock you cannot have a built up butt to give a good cheek weld. To compensate for this when firing you tend to raise the butt up so that the toe only is sort of resting where the whole butt should be.

It is possible to fit a l/h side cocking handle on an AR15 , the Sabre Defence ones that Guy Savage mentioned earlier built used one that looked like it came off an L1A1 , there's no reason this couldn't be fitted on semi/full auto`s ,maybe the Septics dont want any stinking British /Belgian designs on their rifles .

 

[PhotEx]

With the added bonus that because you cock it by pulling the handle back over the butt stock you cannot have a built up butt to give a good cheek weld. To compensate for this when firing you tend to raise the butt up so that the toe only is sort of resting where the whole butt should be.

Magpul, you know you want too!

 

[Stonker]

is there any point issuing rifles with longer range capability if most users cant shoot their current rifle to its limits?

They don't need to get remotely close to the limit of any weapon's inherent accuracy.

What is essential is that they be capable, when under fire, of engaging with sufficient accuracy to suppress or kill their target.

That has everything to do with proper training and shitloads of live firing experience, starting on flat ranges, moving up to realistic tactical live firing as a matter of peacetime routine, not just in PDT.

 

[Effendi]

It is possible to fit a l/h side cocking handle on an AR15 , the Sabre Defence ones that Guy Savage mentioned earlier built used one that looked like it came off an L1A1 , there's no reason this couldn't be fitted on semi/full auto`s ,maybe the Septics dont want any stinking British /Belgian designs on their rifles .

You can get hold of uppers and working parts that have been converted to side cocking handle for self build projects.

There is this cocking handle widget built by an ex-USMC:


For cheek weld there is this widget built by LaRue Tactical, and in use with UKSF:

 

[Effendi]

Magpul, you know you want too!

View attachment 541939

View attachment 541940

Sorry missed that post. I have looked at the LaRue RISR and, meh, might consider fitting one.

 

[Caecilius]

With the added bonus that because you cock it by pulling the handle back over the butt stock you cannot have a built up butt to give a good cheek weld. To compensate for this when firing you tend to raise the butt up so that the toe only is sort of resting where the whole butt should be.

Agreed, but this is slightly less of an issue when shooting in body armour because you generally can't get the butt into a great position anyway. It tends to ride high naturally.

 

[Caecilius]

I dont get why not

A variety of factors, mostly the amount of policy and paperwork involved making it unnecessarily difficult to book range time and ammo.

 

[Nomad1382]

People will do in combat what they've done in training. It's the whole point of training

"train as you fight", "training scars" and all that. There's an old saw about US police officers catching their ejected revolver brass and putting it in their pocket in a firefight. Whether that actually ever happend or not, I dunno, can't find anything definitive in a couple of minutes. But the global point is true that what you train, you'll do live.

And to bring it back to my civvy cnut shooting world, you see it simple things with people training movements by the numbers, choppily with pauses, and then do exactly the same thing on the timer.

California Highway Patrol, the Newhall Shootout (5-6 April 1970). they lost 4 officers in a shootout. It took years for CHP to admit that officers were found with brass in their pockets but they finally did. I worked with a former CHP who was on during the time frame of the shooting. He said that the CHP Range Master hated a messy range so you fired, unloaded and put the brass in your pocket before loading from a dump pouch.

One of the fallen officers had also racked a round into his shotgun as he left his vehicle (he was one of the initial officers responding), when the shooting started, training took over and he rack the shotgun again, ejecting the loaded round.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Yet the USMC is moving back to shooting single shots at targets at range, witness the wholesale adoption of the M27 rifle by the whole Corp....

See numerous posts referring to studies done on marksmanship.

Perception, even from many infantry types with lots of sand on their boots: lots of rounds down is best.

Reality from studies: target identification and aimed shots.

 

[Cold_Collation]

A variety of factors, mostly the amount of policy and paperwork involved making it unnecessarily difficult to book range time and ammo.

So what needs to change?

It's hardly a new problem.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Here's a thing: push it back from the range side, rather than from the unit side.

"We've got 24 hours in the day. That's 120 hours in the working week. These ones have been allotted to you."

"We can't make it."

"Why not?"

Bar the unforeseeable, such as deployments, why shouldn't work?

Try that again: why shouldn't it be made to work?

 

[Kitmarlowe]

See numerous posts referring to studies done on marksmanship.

Perception, even from many infantry types with lots of sand on their boots: lots of rounds down is best.

Reality from studies: target identification and aimed shots.

Having done a Herrick (15) I'd vehemently agree with the second point. Some of the contacts we had with probably no more than 40 -40 people firing saw Ammo Replen demands by the CSM for 20k rounds. Yet no one actually reported identifying the enemy firing point.

The enemy fire towards us was generally higher over our head than being in a butt party on the ranges yet everyone acted as if they were at Brecon under the DS cosh. Looking back it was frankly shit.