SA80 Replacement on the distant horizon ?

gafkiwi

War Hero
In Finland it's common to wear a helmet when shooting TST division cos it's counted in the 12kg weight you've got to carry to meet the division requirements.

I'm likely over the 12kg without it (I'm not sure how much the borrowed plates weigh), but it doesn't hurt to have a bit of a margin for error, and it does give you protection in case you run into a tree, stage prop, or hit your head getting out of a vehicle.

No regrets with people calling it LARPing. H8rz are missing out! :D
Just taking the piss in general, no offense intended. I think it's good to have shooting styles or disciplines that add the complexities of bearing weight/time/stress to show true skill. I was looking at getting into it myself till we were deemed not to be fit and proper to have such things. The comment was more in reference to the Tacticool market when you really need to open carry with your AR and tac rig to go shopping.
 
A British version would be engaging targets carrying a mess tin of boiling hot stew and 2 slices of Mothers Pride, firing from a trench that stanks of piss, dash and low crawl under the guard room window and a lane with multiple targets with a burger van at the end where on completion you must recite the correct order for an entire section of men.
 
They spent a lot of time, ammunition and effort teaching basic marksmanship to a high standard, and rewarded soldiers financially for shooting to standards higher than mere competence.

The training was delivered by instructors who were themselves good shooters, and shooting was supplemented by education and practice in the associated ancillary skills required in a firefight (e.g. finding the enemy; estimating range proficiently; target indication und so weiter) basic lessons in these are taught (barely aequately for the most part) in recruit training, and seldom revisited subsequently in the modern army, would be my take on it.

The 1906 1909 Musketry Regulations are (I'm pretty sure) available for free download as a PDF file these days* - well worth a look.

=====
* I think I spotted a copy on one of my hard drives t'other day. If you're interest and tinterweb can't deliver for you, let me know and I'll have another look at the weekend

You may also have even referred to the channel, but British Muzzleloader did a series on the Musketry regs and what the soldier at the time had to achieve.
 

W21A

LE
Book Reviewer
Just own thoughts.
Some will excel.
Some will manage.
Some will crumble.

Depends on the ratio.
 

W21A

LE
Book Reviewer
A British version would be engaging targets carrying a mess tin of boiling hot stew and 2 slices of Mothers Pride, firing from a trench that stanks of piss, dash and low crawl under the guard room window and a lane with multiple targets with a burger van at the end where on completion you must recite the correct order for an entire section of men.
"Look - it's warm stew!" Order from CQMS.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
They spent a lot of time, ammunition and effort teaching basic marksmanship to a high standard, and rewarded soldiers financially for shooting to standards higher than mere competence.

The training was delivered by instructors who were themselves good shooters, and shooting was supplemented by education and practice in the associated ancillary skills required in a firefight (e.g. finding the enemy; estimating range proficiently; target indication und so weiter) basic lessons in these are taught (barely aequately for the most part) in recruit training, and seldom revisited subsequently in the modern army, would be my take on it.

The 1906 1909 Musketry Regulations are (I'm pretty sure) available for free download as a PDF file these days* - well worth a look.

=====
* I think I spotted a copy on one of my hard drives t'other day. If you're interest and tinterweb can't deliver for you, let me know and I'll have another look at the weekend

I'd recommend watching British Muzzle loaders excellent series of videos on them too to gain a better insight

 
They spent a lot of time, ammunition and effort teaching basic marksmanship to a high standard, and rewarded soldiers financially for shooting to standards higher than mere competence. (...)
Others have already mentioned British Muzzleloaders, but in one of the episodes he mentioned that the rate of pay for a common soldier depended upon his score in the annual shoot. There was a base rate of pay, and above that were at least two higher grades that depended upon achieving a certain score in the annual test. If your score was low you could end up dropping back a grade and so find your pay packet a bit light for the next year until you could do better the next time.

Also a fair bit of training was done which didn't involve ammunition. They would practice positioning, aiming, and dry firing, so counting the number of rounds fired doesn't give you a complete picture of how much time they actually spent training with their rifles.
 
Also a fair bit of training was done which didn't involve ammunition. They would practice positioning, aiming, and dry firing, so counting the number of rounds fired doesn't give you a complete picture of how much time they actually spent training with their rifles.
A massive amount of dry training on manipulations, sight picture, trigger pressing etc. was done. If you look back at pictures of soldiers' bedspaces back in the day, you'll often see the rifle there, and also a few chargers of drill rounds. So they were at that side of it all the time.

And dry training works wonders, for zero expenditure of ammunition.
 

gafkiwi

War Hero
A massive amount of dry training on manipulations, sight picture, trigger pressing etc. was done. If you look back at pictures of soldiers' bedspaces back in the day, you'll often see the rifle there, and also a few chargers of drill rounds. So they were at that side of it all the time.

And dry training works wonders, for zero expenditure of ammunition.
We are seeing a bit of a combination of dry drills, range time and technology and getting good results. A lot of our units use things like the mantisx system ( Dry Fire Training System & Training Aids for Home & Range | Mantis X ) to conduct dry trg as build up to ranges or field firing as well as using it to get data during range shoots. They are also very good for unexpected dwell periods in garrison where a couple weapons (pistol/rifle etc) can be set up and the guys roll through to work on developing muscle memory and confidence. Also things like doing a good bore sight with an LBS prior to getting to the range so the weapon "should" already be in the ball park prior to zeroing and cut down on chasing rounds and wasting time and ammo.
 
A massive amount of dry training on manipulations, sight picture, trigger pressing etc. was done. If you look back at pictures of soldiers' bedspaces back in the day, you'll often see the rifle there, and also a few chargers of drill rounds. So they were at that side of it all the time.

And dry training works wonders, for zero expenditure of ammunition.
Last night I just got around to watching the latest episode of Britishmuzzleloaders. This was on the Martini-Henry, but it's still relevant. One of the things which was mentioned was there was a small bore adapter for the rifle. He didn't go into a lot of detail on that, but it occurs to me that the rounds spent on small bore practice wouldn't have come under the totals for annual full bore ammunition expenditure either.

However, one of the reasons for a small bore adapter was not just the savings on ammunition cost, but also I believe in the days before motorization getting to a small bore range would in many cases have been much easier than getting to a full size range simply due to transportation considerations.

For those not aware, the annual qualification shoot with the Martini-Henry involved both target and what we would now call "tactical" shoots. You did have to show proficiency at hitting a standard target at a number of set ranges. You also however were taken through a set of exercises which were supposed to represent the sorts of situations you would face in the field, and these too were scored. So, "tactical" shooting training is by no means a new concept.
 
"tactical" shooting training is by no means a new concept.
The modern addition to 'tactical shooting' is the insistence on employing targetry that sticks up on the skyline like Katie Price's tits in a tabloid, leading to severe disappointment when (faced with the Queen's enemies) Tommy is confronted with wily peasants who really can put into practice the mantra "See without being seen, Kill without being killed".

Which is really not the best time for grizzling that 'they're just not playing fair'
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
The modern addition to 'tactical shooting' is the insistence on employing targetry that sticks up on the skyline like Katie Price's tits in a tabloid,
Another addition to the huge library of Stonkerbollocks.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
April 2010, post #001 on the thread The Reality of Herrick:
A reply which as usual doesn't support the initial Stonkerbollocks.

But that's par for the course.
 
Last night I just got around to watching the latest episode of Britishmuzzleloaders. This was on the Martini-Henry, but it's still relevant. One of the things which was mentioned was there was a small bore adapter for the rifle. He didn't go into a lot of detail on that, but it occurs to me that the rounds spent on small bore practice wouldn't have come under the totals for annual full bore ammunition expenditure either.

However, one of the reasons for a small bore adapter was not just the savings on ammunition cost, but also I believe in the days before motorization getting to a small bore range would in many cases have been much easier than getting to a full size range

The Morris Tube. Fired a .297/.230 centre fire cartridge.
 

Bluenose2

Old-Salt
There was a base rate of pay, and above that were at least two higher grades that depended upon achieving a certain score in the annual test. If your score was low you could end up dropping back a grade and so find your pay packet a bit light for the next year until you could do better the next time.

I think that's a massively-important point. It also led to a degree of personal pride and interpersonal competitiveness in achieving a good score.

Multiple that across 10s of thousands of infantry soldiers, then the net result is quite profound.

My paternal grandfather died many years before I was born. The only items of personal value he left behind was 1 x photo of my grandmother, his school-leaver pocket bible and his KSLI range cards (or whatever the pocket booklet was called) from 1936...over 15 years prior to is death.

It may only be a sample of one, but it says something about how seriously marksmanship was taken by our forebears.
 
It may only be a sample of one, but it says something about how seriously marksmanship was taken by our forebears.
I agree - BUT - two world wars, followed by a coupla decades of National Service (I would say) smothered the bright flame of the BEF, and trampled on the embers.

Overlay that with weapons security rules that separated soldiers from their personal weapons (in 1974 at RMAS we frequently secured our SLRs overnight in purpose built cupboards in our OCdt bunks in New College. I bet that's not been the case for a long time) and it's not hard to see how it went into decline.
 
I agree - BUT - two world wars, followed by a coupla decades of National Service (I would say) smothered the bright flame of the BEF, and trampled on the embers.

Overlay that with weapons security rules that separated soldiers from their personal weapons (in 1974 at RMAS we frequently secured our SLRs overnight in purpose built cupboards in our OCdt bunks in New College. I bet that's not been the case for a long time) and it's not hard to see how it went into decline.
The blocks at Bassingbourn had armouries, as I'm sure you remember. A lot of the time though we just put them in our lockers.
 

gafkiwi

War Hero
Overlay that with weapons security rules that separated soldiers from their personal weapons (in 1974 at RMAS we frequently secured our SLRs overnight in purpose built cupboards in our OCdt bunks in New College. I bet that's not been the case for a long time) and it's not hard to see how it went into decline.
We had similar issues here in NZ at our recruit depot in the late 2000's. Some bright spark in a position of power decided they would go to a centralized main armory in the Camp that was managed by civi contractors and de-rated the armories in the Platoon barrack blocks. That meant they had to stick to armory timings and had to pay extra for after hours and short notice which had an immediate effect of after hours/continuation training for the recruits. Luckily that eventually got kicked to the curb.
 

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