SA80 coming of age

#1
Well, I totally agree that the A2 is an awsome weapon and has indeed come of age but when I read that it needed a few tweeks I started spitting blood at my computer screen. Here is an extract of the unbelievable shite that comes from the propoganda machine.

The battlefield mission for SA80-A1 at its introduction into service was based on fighting in the temperate climates of north west Europe.

"And it fulfilled the battlefield mission of the time," said the spokesman. "It wasn't envisaged that troops would be deployed in combat conditions to the deserts of Iraq."

What! 10 rounds then stoppage, oh, oh! Bayonet throught he eye from Boris! Or collapsed magazine, or what was that, has anyone seen a gas plug. What a load of toss. :twisted:
 
#2
too true would have been suitable for sitting in a wet trench on exercise.
but weren't troops involved operationally doing urban and rural ops somewhere not too far away?
ffs how difficult is it to make a gun go bang when the trigger pulled and not break
when a hippy gets hold of it :roll:
before you come out with very difficult. Belgians in the 1940s and 50s managed it and there just French in denial :twisted:
 
#3
bearing in mind that we had/have a nato responsibility for the defence of norway, i remember seeing a documentary on RM mountain warfare training, in norway. the bootie shown in one part was basically cycling his sa80 a1 manually. A 'stoppage' on every round. As i understand it, the definiton of stoppage for the acceptance of the A1 DIDN'T include any event where the soldier can cycle the weapon himself and get it to fire again.

Ski.
 
#4
SkiCarver said:
bearing in mind that we had/have a nato responsibility for the defence of norway, i remember seeing a documentary on RM mountain warfare training, in norway. the bootie shown in one part was basically cycling his sa80 a1 manually. A 'stoppage' on every round. As i understand it, the definiton of stoppage for the acceptance of the A1 DIDN'T include any event where the soldier can cycle the weapon himself and get it to fire again.

Ski.
At least he got to the range with his mag on! When we were skiing or doing ski bourne field firing with the weapon strapped across our chest the magazines continually fell off as the mag release catch bumped against us. This was before the magazine release catch mod though.

I personally never encountered any out of the ordinary stoppages when firing the A1 in Norway. As long as the weapon was constantly stowed out in the cold and not subject to rapid temerature changes it generally functioned ok.

It took some getting used to leaving your weapons outside the tent/bivvy in the weapon pit during the night. Always worried me not having it directly to hand.
 
#5
Mr_Deputy said:
We should have gone with the Stirling Assault Rifle. there is one in Leeds Armouries and it looks wicked. :twisted: 8)
We did. Enfield just rammed it up the arrse of an em2 first.
 
#6
The SA80A1 was tested in every environment, including, sand, snow etc. Very tugged tests, and passed succesfully. Unfortunately you can teach a grunt to clean a weapon, but they don't do it properly all the time. The SA80A1 was a good weapon, the A2 is only better because it performs a bit better when dirty.
 
#7
SA80A1 meant to operate in Europe? I can remember an episode in 1991 in Belfast of a soldier who tried to open fired on a PIRA terrorist armed with an AKM and his SA80A1 refused to work due to a broken firing pin. He was not best pleased. In the MOD article it states:

"But troops immediately and unfairly compared it to its predecessor. "

"It was unfair to compare the SA80-A1 weapon with its predecessor the SLR, because the SA80- A1 Individual Weapon and Light Support Weapon were actually a system to replace three weapons – the SLR 7.62mm, the LMG 7.62mm and the SMG 9mm," said a spokesman for the Combat Support Equipment project team, which supports the 'fleet' of weapons that the SA80 has become.

I think its was perfectly reasonable for troops to compare their old weapon (which worked) and their new one (which often didn't). And if the LSW is so good why have we bought the Minimi?
 
#8
Jacques_Bustard said:
SA80A1 meant to operate in Europe? I can remember an episode in 1991 in Belfast of a soldier who tried to open fired on a PIRA terrorist armed with an AKM and his SA80A1 refused to work due to a broken firing pin. He was not best pleased. In the MOD article it states:

"But troops immediately and unfairly compared it to its predecessor. "

"It was unfair to compare the SA80-A1 weapon with its predecessor the SLR, because the SA80- A1 Individual Weapon and Light Support Weapon were actually a system to replace three weapons – the SLR 7.62mm, the LMG 7.62mm and the SMG 9mm," said a spokesman for the Combat Support Equipment project team, which supports the 'fleet' of weapons that the SA80 has become.

I think its was perfectly reasonable for troops to compare their old weapon (which worked) and their new one (which often didn't). And if the LSW is so good why have we bought the Minimi?
A switched on cookie then! Who goes out on ops without making sure his weapon is clean, and serviceable. A Soldier worth his salt would strip it down, clean it, and notice a snapped firing pin. I rest my case.
 
#9
Mr_Deputy said:
We should have gone with the Stirling Assault Rifle. there is one in Leeds Armouries and it looks wicked. :twisted: 8)

Yep. used to work for Sterling. RO knicked the design and totally fucked it up.

Look up AR18


Could have been worse though, we nearly ended up fighting the Falklands War with SA80. Now THAT would not have been fun.
 
#10
smudge67 said:
The SA80A1 was tested in every environment, including, sand, snow etc. Very tugged tests, and passed succesfully. Unfortunately you can teach a grunt to clean a weapon, but they don't do it properly all the time. The SA80A1 was a good weapon, the A2 is only better because it performs a bit better when dirty.

The firing pins were as fragile as glass… I know, we made the things.
 
#11
Oil_Slick said:
smudge67 said:
The SA80A1 was tested in every environment, including, sand, snow etc. Very tugged tests, and passed succesfully. Unfortunately you can teach a grunt to clean a weapon, but they don't do it properly all the time. The SA80A1 was a good weapon, the A2 is only better because it performs a bit better when dirty.

The firing pins were as fragile as glass… I know, we made the things.
They were bad, and people knew it, even more reason to check!
 
#12
smudge67 said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
SA80A1 meant to operate in Europe? I can remember an episode in 1991 in Belfast of a soldier who tried to open fired on a PIRA terrorist armed with an AKM and his SA80A1 refused to work due to a broken firing pin. He was not best pleased. In the MOD article it states:

"But troops immediately and unfairly compared it to its predecessor. "

"It was unfair to compare the SA80-A1 weapon with its predecessor the SLR, because the SA80- A1 Individual Weapon and Light Support Weapon were actually a system to replace three weapons – the SLR 7.62mm, the LMG 7.62mm and the SMG 9mm," said a spokesman for the Combat Support Equipment project team, which supports the 'fleet' of weapons that the SA80 has become.

I think its was perfectly reasonable for troops to compare their old weapon (which worked) and their new one (which often didn't). And if the LSW is so good why have we bought the Minimi?
A switched on cookie then! Who goes out on ops without making sure his weapon is clean, and serviceable. A Soldier worth his salt would strip it down, clean it, and notice a snapped firing pin. I rest my case.
Exactly when did the firing pin break? Apart from which I can't remember a single firing pin breakage in over 35 years of shooting. Not exactly the most common failure.
 
#13
What lifespan has the new SA80 A2 got?? When should we be looking at getting a new rifle (not an A3 ect...).

Also, in today's market, what do you think would be the best choice? G36?

Jamie
 
#15
1140_Sqn said:
What lifespan has the new SA80 A2 got?? When should we be looking at getting a new rifle (not an A3 ect...).

Also, in today's market, what do you think would be the best choice? G36?

Jamie

It was supposed to last till 2012, but who knows now?

Replacement? Diemaco C7's and 8's make good sense, but we'll probably buy the G36 to keep our EU 'allies' sweet.
 
#16
smudge67 said:
The SA80A1 was tested in every environment, including, sand, snow etc. Very tugged tests, and passed succesfully. Unfortunately you can teach a grunt to clean a weapon, but they don't do it properly all the time. The SA80A1 was a good weapon, the A2 is only better because it performs a bit better when dirty.
Smudge are you for real? Are you even aware of the testing procedure for the A1? 8O

For your information: For the A1 to be passed into service, it had to be able to fire 100 rounds within a 24hour period without more than one stoppage of the same kind. Therefore, after you had the your IA but then your gas plug shot out through the front of the gas block and then your magazine collapsed, it would still pass.There was also no time limit as to when they were to fire the 100 rounds. Now who's telling me they knew there was nothing wrong with the weapon at the time. I think you are getting mixed up with the A2, which went through one of the most rigorous weapon tests at the time. :x
 
#17
Jacques_Bustard said:
SA80A1 meant to operate in Europe? I can remember an episode in 1991 in Belfast of a soldier who tried to open fired on a PIRA terrorist armed with an AKM and his SA80A1 refused to work due to a broken firing pin. He was not best pleased. In the MOD article it states:

"But troops immediately and unfairly compared it to its predecessor. "

"It was unfair to compare the SA80-A1 weapon with its predecessor the SLR, because the SA80- A1 Individual Weapon and Light Support Weapon were actually a system to replace three weapons – the SLR 7.62mm, the LMG 7.62mm and the SMG 9mm," said a spokesman for the Combat Support Equipment project team, which supports the 'fleet' of weapons that the SA80 has become.

I think its was perfectly reasonable for troops to compare their old weapon (which worked) and their new one (which often didn't). And if the LSW is so good why have we bought the Minimi?

I believe the LSW was meant to replace the LMG which had a 25 - 30 round magazine i think? Then they probably thought the LSW would be employed in the same situations?

Just shooting ideas out there, it's still a gash attempt at a machine gun and the LMG p1sses all over it!

W-60
 
#18
leonidas42 said:
smudge67 said:
The SA80A1 was tested in every environment, including, sand, snow etc. Very tugged tests, and passed succesfully. Unfortunately you can teach a grunt to clean a weapon, but they don't do it properly all the time. The SA80A1 was a good weapon, the A2 is only better because it performs a bit better when dirty.
Smudge are you for real? Are you even aware of the testing procedure for the A1? 8O

For your information: For the A1 to be passed into service, it had to be able to fire 100 rounds within a 24hour period without more than one stoppage of the same kind. Therefore, after you had the your IA but then your gas plug shot out through the front of the gas block and then your magazine collapsed, it would still pass.There was also no time limit as to when they were to fire the 100 rounds. Now who's telling me they knew there was nothing wrong with the weapon at the time. I think you are getting mixed up with the A2, which went through one of the most rigorous weapon tests at the time. :x
I'm perfectly aware of the A1 weapon tests. On the armourers course we watched trials videos, when properly prep'd the weapon was fine.
 
#19
1140_Sqn said:
What lifespan has the new SA80 A2 got?? When should we be looking at getting a new rifle (not an A3 ect...).

Also, in today's market, what do you think would be the best choice? G36?

Jamie
The G36 gets mentioned a lot here. Seeing as only the Spanish and the Germans adopted it, and HK are promoting the 416 and 417 heavily ( already adopted by American sneaky beaky types and the Norwegians) in its place, I would suggest that the 416 is probably the way to go.

Of the modern alternatives, I'm not so sure that the current FN offering (SCAR) has got legs beyond specialist users, in the same way as the Stoner 63 which is more or less its predecessor in concept, .

I would expect the SA 80 to stay on well past its welcome. remember that in terms of technology, it is a 1960s design (the heyday of pressed metal and lost wax casting), prototyped in the 1970s, completed in typical British government fashion in the 1980s and only made to work in the 2000s. So, in principle , it is already 40 years old (even though it was only introduced in the 1980s). If you think of its predecessor, the SLR, that was a distinctly 1950s design replaced in the late 80s when it was less than 40 years old.
 
#20
Drlligaf said:
smudge67 said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
SA80A1 meant to operate in Europe? I can remember an episode in 1991 in Belfast of a soldier who tried to open fired on a PIRA terrorist armed with an AKM and his SA80A1 refused to work due to a broken firing pin. He was not best pleased. In the MOD article it states:

"But troops immediately and unfairly compared it to its predecessor. "

"It was unfair to compare the SA80-A1 weapon with its predecessor the SLR, because the SA80- A1 Individual Weapon and Light Support Weapon were actually a system to replace three weapons – the SLR 7.62mm, the LMG 7.62mm and the SMG 9mm," said a spokesman for the Combat Support Equipment project team, which supports the 'fleet' of weapons that the SA80 has become.

I think its was perfectly reasonable for troops to compare their old weapon (which worked) and their new one (which often didn't). And if the LSW is so good why have we bought the Minimi?
A switched on cookie then! Who goes out on ops without making sure his weapon is clean, and serviceable. A Soldier worth his salt would strip it down, clean it, and notice a snapped firing pin. I rest my case.
Exactly when did the firing pin break? Apart from which I can't remember a single firing pin breakage in over 35 years of shooting. Not exactly the most common failure.
I had a firing pin snap after the first round fired in a "contact" (blank firing).

I can also think of at least three of my friends who suffered from firing pins breaking, this was between 2003 and 2006.

Wasn't the expected life something silly like 4000 rounds?
 

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