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Ukraine War in Ukraine

The error in your thinking is that we don't have an equation but an equation system.

Meh, it's all down to perspective. I look upon it as vector space with a single function into which I toss a shed load of arguments -- it's just a complex equation.

But it is nice to see that even an ardent supporter of Putin and Russia calls him, albeit a bit cryptic, a mass-murdering, genocidal, bloodthirsty mad bastard.

Here you go with your assumptions again. I'm not an ardent Putin or Russia supporter, but clearly, in your mind, there is no room for anything other than looking at a situation through the "correct" goggles. I have most often found it convenient to examine a problem from multiple perspectives to gain a better understanding of it. Besides, I like playing devil's advocate on occasion - it is amazing what you can learn and understand by doing so.

If you're going to drag systems of equations into the conversation you ought to be fully aware of the differences in a solution's behaviour that changes to parameters can make and, more to the point, how assumptions can end up constraining solutions, even to the point of non-existence. And if you don't test your assumptions you can easily miss interesting, valid and optimal solutions.

However, it seems you can add hypocrisy to your intellectual arsenal as you are the genocidal mass murderer who'd be happy to nuke Russia into disused-toilet status. Please remember Moscow isn't East-Meg One, Putin isn't Supreme Judge Bulgarin, you're not Judge Dredd, and real people's lives are on the line here, даже если эти жизни всего лишь русские.
 
Ah yes the if we arm the weaker side it will make war unlikely school of thought vs the (rather more logical) if someones virtually defenceless theyre easy pickings - if they can protect themselves agressors will be less like to risk a bloody nose.

Take note of whats being sent - for this to be a danger for Russian formations their within spitting distance of the border and heading west
Similar arguments will have been made when Stingers were sent to Afghanistan. Then 20 years later it was an enormous effort to try to find the unused launchers before they were pressed back into service against NATO aircraft.
 
********. Where did I mention Trump v Biden. I did not. Biden is a Neurologically impaired person. He needs to be gone, hence my statement. Do Fck off with your boring Orange Man Bad ad hominems when you have nothing to say and no background to show.

Besides. Ya’ll haven’t done SHITE for the world except bitch and moan about your plight. You should sit this one out also…
Well I would say within a fortnight we shall just how serious the Russians are and what the response from Biden will be.
 
Spanish frigate Blas de Lezo will head for the Black Sea in the next day or two. A Spanish class Meteoro patrol vessel set sail yesterday for the same location.

They will be providing fighter aircraft to Bulgaria once NATO has decided on the deployment and the number that will be required.

F-103 Blas de Lezo
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P-44 Meteoro Patrol Craft
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The error in your thinking is that we don't have an equation but an equation system. The part you describe is covered by MAD. As far as I know the Mutual as the Assured part are still in effect and the Destruction part is obvious.

But it is nice to see that even a ardent supporter of Putin and Russia calls him, albeit a bit cryptic, a mass-murdering, genocidal, bloodthirsty mad bastard.

Yo be fair, he has some bad points as well.
 
Whilst it might be nice to have a land bridge to Kaliningrad, I think other considerations come into play. As I remarked earlier, the Baltic States actually are NATO and I don't think Moscow wants to give the US, sorry NATO, an excuse to officially go postal.

The Baltic States themselves are no direct threat to Russia and any potential invading force would have to arrive by sea or air, giving Moscow plenty of time to respond over a limited front. Ukraine is a different matter entirely.

As regards your first paragraph Moscow's initial aim is to make NATO an irrelevance. The possibility of increasing arguments over Ukraine causing further divisions (already noticeable in the attitudes of parts of the German and French political establishments) can lead to greater divisiveness and (as postulated in the Baltics thread on ARRSE) potentially to a refusal to come to the support of the Baltic States.

I agree that is an aim of Moscow, but I think they'll be happy in the short term for divisions to occur over Ukraine, which isn't a NATO member. I don't think they'll expect NATO to fall apart sufficiently that a member invoking Article 5 will get a swift ignoring. Nor do I see it happening soon.

Should Russia successfully invade and occupy (parts of) Ukraine whilst NATO member countries stand by shouting "Come on, Ukraine" from the sidelines, then I think that the post-match hand-wringing will stiffen NATO's resolve as the "enemy" will now be at the gate again. Maybe we'll have promises of peace in our time and no more territorial gains ...

As regards your second paragraph, a free Ukraine itself is also not a direct physical threat to Russia. The Kremlin narrative on this point is misleading.

Agreed, but (there's always a but :-D)...

A free Ukraine is a threat to the regime in place in the Kremlin and their hold on the Russian peoples. That is the reason why control of Ukraine is so important to Moscow.

Again, it might be helpful to look at Moscow's historical perspective. Ukraine is a threat if it effectively becomes a "Western" /NATO border state. And, IMO, mitigating that scenario is a major part of the Kremlin's game plan.

The golden rule of threat analysis is "never mind what people think will happen now, what is the potential for bad things happening", If anybody can correctly guess the state of the world in 10 years time and who the players are, good luck to them getting decent odds down at Paddy Power. But I guess most of us can play the What If game well enough to make a list if we set aside our assumptions and prejudices.

OOIC, why is a "free" Ukraine a threat to the Moscow regime? The Russians I know seem to be saddened by the deterioration of Russo-Ukrainian relations, as there used to be a fair degree of cooperation between the two nations. But I can't say I've picked up much in the way of mutterings from the ranks due to Ukraine's "freedom".

Agreed the Baltic States are not a threat to Russia, but they are a very valuable former part of the Tsarist and Soviet Empires that the current regime has stated that it wants to reconstruct.

Agreed. However, I don't think the Baltic States are down for incorporation in the short to medium term. And not until Russia can be confident that the end result will only be lots of finger-pointing and shouting from NATO.
 
I guess the main question for the Russians will be what is the body bag limit their public is willing to accept to add a few more kilometers of dirt to their holdings? Ukraine would end up being a tar pit for the Russians and cost them lives but also significantly hurt their economy.
 
I guess the main question for the Russians will be what is the body bag limit their public is willing to accept to add a few more kilometers of dirt to their holdings? Ukraine would end up being a tar pit for the Russians and cost them lives but also significantly hurt their economy.

How very naive a theory :)
 
Well I would say within a fortnight we shall just how serious the Russians are and what the response from Biden will be.

I (idly) wonder if this is basically just a deployment test, with a side serving of intimidation and reconnaissance by show of force? I imagine their analysts will be pleasuring themselves silly with the amount of information they've garnered.
 
Yo be fair, he has some bad points as well.

It was the Austrian what made 'em do it.

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I have noted in the last week that there is now the odd fast jet flying across Dallas/Fort Worth airspace. Ordinarily they do not, if they are local they abruptly turn to miss the metroplex, ones passing through tend to fly around the metroplex. Made me wonder if they were massing somewhere to head off over towards europe.

Saw a report on BBC International news last night: UK has sent over one, or two transpotrt plane loads of man portable anti-tank launchers, and are following up with training teams.
 
Whilst it might be nice to have a land bridge to Kaliningrad, I think other considerations come into play. As I remarked earlier, the Baltic States actually are NATO and I don't think Moscow wants to give the US, sorry NATO, an excuse to officially go postal.
Russia already has its " . . . land bridge to Kaliningrad", in the form of a direct rail link across Lithuania, that I have travelled myself, back in 1995-96. I would formalise it slightly, by re-directing the line around Vilnius station, and then ensuring/insisting on non-stop Russian/Belarus -to- Kaliningrad trains, across Lithuania.

Think of the British “Berliner” rail connection across Eastern Germany.

The Baltic States themselves are no direct threat to Russia and any potential invading force would have to arrive by sea or air, giving Moscow plenty of time to respond over a limited front. Ukraine is a different matter entirely.
I don't understand?

To which "potential invading force", do you refer; and, "arriving" where ?
 
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