Russian Troop Movements Reported Near Ukraine

When Will Russia Invade Ukraine

  • Wed 16th Feb

    Votes: 20 7.0%
  • Before 22nd Feb

    Votes: 54 18.9%
  • By St David's Day (1 March)

    Votes: 91 31.9%
  • By St Georges Day (23 April)

    Votes: 21 7.4%
  • By August

    Votes: 9 3.2%
  • By Christmas

    Votes: 6 2.1%
  • Some time in 2023

    Votes: 16 5.6%
  • Before Hell Freezes Over

    Votes: 68 23.9%

  • Total voters
    285
I disagree, based on my reading of Soviet operations from 1943 onwards. The tactics used by lower levels of command remained brutal and simplistic because they could not train their soldiers to the level of capability of the Germans or Allies and thus had to batter their way through. The senior commanders however could manoeuvre fronts and armies with sufficient ability to take the Germans by surprise when required.

Your statement reflects what most people think the Soviets did. However, it's late and I'm not going to argue.
How ever to that I would add look at Zhukov during the first phase of the assault on Berlin, I.e the attack on the seelowe heights, no finesse or manoeuvre there, pure battering tactics that almost failed, same during the assault on Berlin itself. Several battles during the winter offensive in Ukraine winter 43/44, yes the Russians had advanced a bit from 42/early43, but on the whole it was still a sledgehammer army that used tactics that were very wasteful in manpower and kit.
The most successful Soviet commanders were the ones who cared little about losses (Zhukov, Koniev, Rokkosovasky, Vatutin) to name a few, even though Vatutin died in Nov or Dec 43 killed funnily enough by Ukrainian partisans.
 
Just watching the Eurovision Ukraine team filming before the contest in Irpin on BBC. Now I am blubbing like a girl. I wish that I could express my crap better.
 
Happy to be corrected, but it strikes me that Russia is fighting a war against the civilian population of Ukraine: precision strikes on schools, hospitals, cultural centres and apartment blocks. We have witnessed millions of refugees fleeing to the west and hostages/deportees being taken to the east. We have reports of barbarous behaviour against children. This report from the ABC (ideologically similar to the BBC, for what's that's worth) details anti-personnel mining and booby traps surely left to injure or kill civilians:

 

holyphuc

Old-Salt
This , for anyone interested ...

(Mods. I'll take it to t'other thread if reqd.)

Edit
To bring back nearer on topic..

I and my two neighbours have >600 acres in 'the scheme' we can grow ANY crop possible in the UK on our grade 1 soils, at the least we would've produced circa 2000T of cereals, now nowt but butterflies.

Must go , my 27t delivery of potatoes has just rolled up, they're for my cattle , the spud job's crashed...£30T for PERFECT Maris Piper (chip shop spec) nobody wants em and to grade/ process em it's £15....
Its costing me the haulage ( £12/t)
Easier just load em out for stockfeed (bear in mind they've been in fridges since October, the leccy alone will have cost a fiver, nevermind the £100/t growing costs)

There's nothing 'short' this year (apart from cash) in the veg sector.

Next year however...

ETA.
Messrs HT and Holyphuc will have a different outlook.
One size never fits all.
My cousin grows spuds in a fairly large way, he was lamenting the low price when everything else seems to be on the up, I think people are just too lazy/stupid/can't afford the cost of cooking to eat spuds unless done for them as chips or crisps, next year however.....
 
Presumably by exposing to the gaze of a critical world the egregiousness of RUS state-sponsored gangsterism outwith the borders of the RUS Fed as they are internationally recognised by the member states of the United Nations.

In which case, it's not the UK that's responsible, it's down to the slum-born mentality of the twunt at the top of the RUS national hierarchy.
- - - -
Wasn't there a punter on here a while ago who kept arguing that the UKR was responsible for causing the Orc invasion of UKR? ^~
 
No, not a single one, Schroder has been thrown to the sharks but only to appease (that word again, Macron calm yourself) the masses and their sense of outrage, that will be short lived.
Modern society is so fickle it makes my guts churn, a nation is in the process of fighting for it's very survival, and after the initial shock et al by the EU etc, very few are actually doing what is needed, we have countries now actively stopping NATO gaining 2 new partners, nations leaders saying we should allow Putin an 'off ramp' and a nation dragging it's heels on supplying kit that will help Ukraine massively. This attitude will only get worse until Either Ukraine manage to bleed Russia dry or Putin does something stupid once he understands that he can not win by normal means.

The west has been seen as weak, this is part of the reason Putin decided to launch this war, some in Europe have stepped up to the plate, some have not and have and are clearly playing into Putins hands, I do not know what happens next, but I do know what should/Must happen, I.E we stop mincing around and do what clearly needs to happen, get Turkey in order, sort out Germany and it's feet dragging and put Macron back in his box. will this happen...............we await with baited breath.
 
Soviet military doctrine by the end of WW2 was sound and they beat the Germans with it. The lessons from that experience have since been forgotten and the present Russian Army is floundering because they have have no real experience of large scale heavy metal manouevre warfare and don't know how to deal with warfare in the 21st century.
As I said. 'They fought the war, then believed their own propaganda...'

I'd also question the statement about how sound they were. There's the whole myth of Prokhorovka where they had to add a couple of zero's to the German AFV counts to make it look more heroic.

You may also want to look at this:

Which indicates that over 50% of the hits on Soviet tanks were occurring from the side.

And the Germans were always going to loose, there was no way they could have won the Second World War.
 

Ursus Major

War Hero
There's a huge audience for Eastenders/Corrie/mongs on ice.

5 minutes in, kick it off.

Ditto whatever is being broadcast live on the sports channels.

No play it, you lose your broadcasting licence.

Hard times, hard solutions.
That’s a bit, err Soviet….
 

kandak01

War Hero
Apart from Belorusian mustache man.

Any update on the salvage attempt on Moskva?

Troops and missiles on Snake Island?

Inquiry into Rumanian jet and chopper lost in the first couple of days of the war
 
As I said. 'They fought the war, then believed their own propaganda...'

I'd also question the statement about how sound they were. There's the whole myth of Prokhorovka where they had to add a couple of zero's to the German AFV counts to make it look more heroic.

You may also want to look at this:

Which indicates that over 50% of the hits on Soviet tanks were occurring from the side.

And the Germans were always going to loose, there was no way they could have won the Second World War.
The whole Prokhorovka myth is just that a myth, Roughly 35 PZ IVH's and 4 PZ VIE stopped cold an entire Tank army, lost roughly 12 PZ IV's total write off and 1 PZ VIE Total write off, 5th Guards Tank army+ (it had an extra Mechanized Corps (5th Guards) attached) lost just short of 600 T-34/T-70 as total write offs, Over 100 were found in the area of Hill 252.2 (1Km south west of Prokhorovka).
Even then Ivan could not help but lie like a cheap NAAFI watch, if you read Russian accounts the Germans fielded over 70 Tigers (in effect in the area of the Soviet counterattack there were only 4 runners, all held in the 13th Kompanie of LSSAH) LSSAH had in total roughly 41 Panzers battleworthy and IIRC17 Stug III G's.
Ivan has history of bending the truth, the Prokhorovka myth of Russian tactical brilliance is just that a myth, it is a myth we fully swallowed, even at the end of the war Ivan was not that much better than in mid 43, all their offensives were limited to logistical lifts and how far a T-34/JS-II could move on two loads of fuel. Once an offensive out ran it's initial arty cover and hit the German reserves it tended to struggle, the only reason why they did succeed near the end of the war was the German army was so fcuked by then that no amount of tactical ability was going to stop Ivan.
 

fannyb

Clanker
Rus has already decided they are a ‘terrorist organisation’. Make of that what you will.
Can't help thinking Russia threatening to treat Azov as terrorists rather than PoW has something to do with it. The logic is pretty simple... you're going to get shot one way or another; up against a wall or going down fighting, taking as many of them with you as you can. Doesn't seem like a difficult decision to me.
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
I disagree, based on my reading of Soviet operations from 1943 onwards. The tactics used by lower levels of command remained brutal and simplistic because they could not train their soldiers to the level of capability of the Germans or Allies and thus had to batter their way through. The senior commanders however could manoeuvre fronts and armies with sufficient ability to take the Germans by surprise when required.

Your statement reflects what most people think the Soviets did. However, it's late and I'm not going to argue.
I remember reading that one of the Soviet Generals, when asked how they cleared minefields so quickly, replied ' We just march the penal battalions through first'.

A great ethos, guaranteed to raise morale.
 
D

Deleted 139028

Guest
Unspeakable.

This needs to be documented & the reports presented to ordinary Russians. See how proud of their boys they are.
There's more than enough evidence that the bastard russian public wouldn't believe a word you, or anyone, said. They're that indoctrinated they don't even believe their own sons when they ring home and tell them what's happening or those that give their boyfriend/husband permission to rape as long as they're careful about protection!
 
My point (clumsily expressed, perhaps) was that it was possible for a minority activist campaign to gain traction in the (failing) USSR only "because Gorbachev", who - at that time, faced as he was with a dawning if imperfect understanding that USSR State bankruptcy loomed - was a soft touch.

That history ain't going to repeat itself while Putain's at the helm. He will (IMHO) repress sooner, longer and harder than Gorbie . . . . simply because "That's the True And Proper Russian Way"
Ahem, it could repeat itself. Just as Russia took a nice big golden goodbye with German unification, right at this point if the UN is asking Russia to release food stocks, my guess is that money will do it. Problem is that Putin wants money and the UN can’t be seen to support Putin. Ultimately it’s down to control of resources.
No, a good deal of it is down to German defence inefficiency.
That and the law.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Happy to be corrected, but it strikes me that Russia is fighting a war against the civilian population of Ukraine: precision strikes on schools, hospitals, cultural centres and apartment blocks. We have witnessed millions of refugees fleeing to the west and hostages/deportees being taken to the east. We have reports of barbarous behaviour against children. This report from the ABC (ideologically similar to the BBC, for what's that's worth) details anti-personnel mining and booby traps surely left to injure or kill civilians:


That's because the Russian Army's not designed to take on anything that can fight back.
 
D

Deleted 139028

Guest
Ukrainians were never going to get justice through normal channels. We all know that. Nuclear armed countries will never be held to account.

That’s why Putin believes the west is weak. We believe in democracy and the rule of law.

I’m happy with justice being meted out by an ever increasing Russian body count. An ever reducing Russian military capability. Russian mothers mourning their dead sons. Russian widows mourning their lost husbands. An ever difficult situation in Russia due to economic sanctions biting.

Taking Russia to court is the equivalent of the medieval process of taking a cow to court because you believe it’s been possessed by the devil.

I can already see some western political
Commentators discussing the damage to Ukraine even it it wins. I read that as ‘should we sell Ukraine out to save money and pretend were actually doing them a favour.’
Holding a country and it's leaders to account in a court of law isn't all about getting justice for their victims, it sends a message to their citizens, and other countries so like minded, that they will be held accountable, no matter how many of their armed forces have been lost or the costs to their country. Russia however won't in this case be held accountable in any court of law, that's not because it's a nuclear armed country but because to do so you'd have to completely win a war against them and take control of their country and institutions, NATO won't do that and it would turn very nuclear way before it got to that point.

Putin and other dictators think the west is weak because our political leaders are answerable to their electorates, that has nothing to do with being nuclear armed.

I'm not happy with anyone losing their life because an egotistical maniac is happy to cause death and destruction on an industrial scale, I do however accept that countless lives of bastard russians has and will continue to happen, as unfortunately will the death of Ukrainian citizens and members of their defence forces.

I see those discussing the damage to Ukraine and the conflict aftermath as sensible, at some point the conflict, at least in it's current form, will end. Politicians of Ukraine and supporting countries will already be planning for the reconstruction and reconstitution phase and will have been doing so for a long time.
 

kandak01

War Hero
The whole Prokhorovka myth is just that a myth
AIUI, the myth of Prokhorovka also directly drove post war Soviet tank doctrine, because it was accepted as truth

The relevance is that all militaries should-must- examine campaigns with brutal honesty if they don't want to repeat past failures.
(cough, Iraq, Afghanistan)

It'll be interesting to see, years from now, what the truth of this war is.
 
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