Russian Surveillance Aircraft lost at sea off Syria

Is there any evidence for this? As I understand it, the Israelis are claiming that their aircraft were all back inside Israeli airspace when the shoot down occurred.
Which is unusual in itself as the IDF generally makes no statement about attacks into Syria. Additionally, the phrase 'inside Israeli airspace' could be interpreted as either the Israeli-administered Tel Aviv Flight Information Region or 12 mile 'sovereign' airspace, at which point the type of standoff ordnance used in the strike could also come into play.
 
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Well, you are the one channelling an accusation.At the least it would be normal behaviour to provide some basis for the accusation rather than a bald assertion backed up only by trying to rubbish their denial.
As far as I know, not even the Russians have accused the IDF of using the Il-20 to mask their F16’s, only of “starting a chan of events”
Maybe you should listen to a wider range of "sources".

If you've not heard of the suggested actions of the IDF, fair enough.

You keep swallowing the IDF line.
 
As highly sought as my opinion is, I know no more than most of the other "contributors" to this thread.

But, like I said, the IDF are hardly likely to admit culpability, are they? I'm not "confirming" anything nor am I discussing "evidence".

If you feel you take their word at face value, fair enough...
Well to use D&D speak if the IDF used the Russian bird to help mask their movement aka the ( meat shield) it worked out well. The Syrians are still responsible for everything they shoot off, if they don't figure out who they are shooting at, then it is still on them. The Russians are going to have to be very careful in the future, because they are also fair game when their proxies are playing with the Roman candles.
 
Maybe you should listen to a wider range of "sources".

If you've not heard of the suggested actions of the IDF, fair enough.

You keep swallowing the IDF line.
What’s keeping you from linking to them? Embarrassment?
 
What’s keeping you from linking to them? Embarrassment?
Hush.

Russians now in agreement that the Syrians shot down a Russian jet with Russian SAM's supplied by Russia, but still bleating that the Israeli's caused the FF incident by being 'behind the Russian aircraft as they attacked Syrian targets".
The comment wasn't mine in the first place, Einstein.

This is CA, stop being a dick.
 
The Il-20 was apparently at low level recovering to Heimim AB and therefore at even slower speed than normal as well as presumably squawking iaw Russian-Syrian procedures.

Even if the Israeli aircraft were still in the general area, they would have been at far higher speed and far higher altitude. Most importantly, even old SAMs such as the S-200 can effectively discriminate targets at the same altitude and speed. Therefore, I doubt VERY much that any self-respecting IDF fighter pilot is going to knowingly set up the geometry to use a Russian aircraft as a ‘shield’; EW and maintaining energy will be his primary means of defence.

The fault for this tragic incident lies most probably entirely with the Syrian AD system. While their SA was probably being degraded by Israeli EW, they should have known that friendlies were in the area and applied greater caution. Instead, they most likely adopted their normal tactic of barrage launching SAMs ballistically or with late illumination tactics.

The only other possible factor is if the Russian aircraft was not adhering to Base/Area Defence Zone safe passage procedures whereby if you stray outside specific areas, headings or altitudes, or don’t squawk, you’re fair game.

RIP to the crew but the Eastern Med, Syria, Iraq, Turkey Jordon and Lebanon are VERY complex, VERY dynamic and far from safe areas.

Regards,
MM
 
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The Il-20 was apparently at low level recovering to Heimim AB and therefore at even slower speed than normal as well as presumably squawking iaw Russian-Syrian procedures.

Even if the Israeli aircraft were still in the general area, they would have been at far higher speed, far higher altitude; I doubt VERY much that any self-respecting IDF fighter pilot is going to knowingly set up the geometry to use a Russian aircraft as a ‘shield’. Even if that were to be an effective plot (even old SAMs such as the S200 can discriminate targets effectively, even if at the same altitude and speed), EW and maintaining energy will be his primary means of defence.

The fault for this tragic incident lies most probably entirely with the Syrian AD system. While their SA was probably being degraded by Israeli EW, they should have known that friendlies were in the area and applied greater caution. Instead, they most likely adopted their normal tactic of barrage launching SAMs ballistic ally or with late illumination tactics.

The only other possible factor is if the Russian aircraft was not adhering to Base/Area Defence Zone safe passage procedures whereby if you stray outside specific areas, headings or altitudes, you’re fair game.

RIP to the crew but the Eastern Med, Syria, Iraq, Turkey Jordon and Lebanon are VERY complex, VERY dynamic and far from safe areas.

Regards,
MM
Pretty definitive IMO.

Thank you.
 
So not being used as a shield by those naughty IDF then? Or have misread MM's post?
It now seems (contrary to the original comment (by Mr. Royal Green Jacket) that the IDF where not using Russian a/c as a shield.

Frankly I'd trust MM over just about anyone on air warfare matters.
 
...Frankly I'd trust MM over just about anyone on air warfare matters.
Little do you know I’m a 45 year old career Air Cadet drill instructor who failed the medical for RAFP dog kennel maid and whose subsequent applications were rejected due to an unfortunate misunderstanding regarding a little known website.

Regards,
MM
 
Little do you know I’m a 45 year old career Air Cadet drill instructor who failed the medical for RAFP dog kennel maid and whose subsequent applications were rejected due to an unfortunate misunderstanding regarding a little known website.

Regards,
MM
Hello mucker, I'd thought I knew you from somewhere!
 
The Il-20 was apparently at low level recovering to Heimim AB and therefore at even slower speed than normal as well as presumably squawking iaw Russian-Syrian procedures.

Even if the Israeli aircraft were still in the general area, they would have been at far higher speed and far higher altitude. Most importantly, even old SAMs such as the S200 can discriminate targets effectively, even if at the same altitude and speed. Therefore, I doubt VERY much that any self-respecting IDF fighter pilot is going to knowingly set up the geometry to use a Russian aircraft as a ‘shield’; EW and maintaining energy will be his primary means of defence.

The fault for this tragic incident lies most probably entirely with the Syrian AD system. While their SA was probably being degraded by Israeli EW, they should have known that friendlies were in the area and applied greater caution. Instead, they most likely adopted their normal tactic of barrage launching SAMs ballistically or with late illumination tactics.

The only other possible factor is if the Russian aircraft was not adhering to Base/Area Defence Zone safe passage procedures whereby if you stray outside specific areas, headings or altitudes, or don’t squawk, you’re fair game.

RIP to the crew but the Eastern Med, Syria, Iraq, Turkey Jordon and Lebanon are VERY complex, VERY dynamic and far from safe areas.

Regards,
MM
The major issue I would see is if the Russians were as a result of this to decide to take more active control of the defence of their personnel and put up air patrols to create a broad exclusion zone to prevent a recurrence.

I suspect however the Russians will not push the issue too hard with the Israelis. Russia and Israel seem to be getting along fairly well in general, Syria aside, and the Russians don't have a lot of friends these days. I also would not be surprised if there were a greater two way flow of intelligence information between the two than is generally reported and it would be very much to Russia's advantage for it to continue.

I suspect what the Russians will do is to arrange for better coordination with Israel to try to ensure this doesn't happen again.

With regards to the Syrians, I do recall the Americans sounding very disappointed when the Syrians wouldn't oblige them by turning on their radars during the past missile strike extravaganza.
 
So you are not an expert in Israeli air defence then. The Emperor is still chuckling away at you for listening to him.
Well, I was replying to someone who said the IDF had used a Russian a/c to mask their movements.
I know some delicate snowflakes are desperate to score a point over me, but I wasn't the source of the original comment.

It was my chum RoyalGreenJacket.

I've never claimed to be an expert in air warfare of any kind, I was just commenting on what someone else has said.

In short a swing and a miss, champ.

Odd that so many people don't seem to have noted his post. The whiff of purple smoke is strong...
 
He did not actually admit to being wrong , he just doffed his cap to Magic Mushrooms superior knowledge. So pretty good swerve .
Read what I actually wrote, and the post to which I replied rather than what you (now desperately) hope I'd written.
 

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