Russian Surveillance Aircraft lost at sea off Syria

Respectable newspaper Kommersant using its sources in Russian MoD reports about planned transfer of S-300 AD systems to Syria. Previously Russian MoD told about appropriate measures to exclude further Il-20 type tragedies.
Минобо объявило виня

The systems could be given to the Syrians and also Russian specialists could be sent to help the Syrians to operate S-300 properly.
So...Russian trained monkeys using obsolete Russian weapons shoot down Russian aircraft.
Solution- Send more deadly Russian weapon system to monkeys, to be trained by Russians...
I can see some small technical problems here.

What a very Russian solution, to leverage the incompetence of its clients to allow it to install a more capable weapon system, allegedly under its own control, in the area to bolster its own influence.
However, if it is under Russian control, it won't impress the Israelis if they lose an aircraft to it. They will just mallet it.

So the local chimps instructed by the Russian gibbons will still be left to shoot down anything that flies.

It is rather like solving the problem of a village idiot who shoots the neighbour's cats with an air gun by giving him a shotgun and ammunition.
Ultimately, you are just enabling the idiot to do more damage.
 
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Respectable newspaper Kommersant using its sources in Russian MoD reports about planned transfer of S-300 AD systems to Syria. Previously Russian MoD told about appropriate measures to exclude further Il-20 type tragedies.
Минобо объявило виня

The systems could be given to the Syrians and also Russian specialists could be sent to help the Syrians to operate S-300 properly.
Does that mean instead of lobbing 20 SA5 Gammon (S-200)’s they’ll only need 5 SA10 (mustn’t) Grumble (S-300)’s to shoot down the next Russian aircraft that makes the mistake of landing over 20 minutes after an attack by IDF planes in an area way to the north of the SAM batteries?

Israel trained against Russian-made air defense system in Greece: sources | Reuters
3 years ago, apparently training was undertaken against S-300 aka SA10 aka Grumble.
 
How does a super duper russian surveillance aircraft NOT know there are other unidentified aircraft flying near it? and possibly fighterbombers?

Presumably one ot the technical people aboard knows what RADAR is even if the IAF craft had transponders off?
Coots are sigint collectors, they'd know what radars were operating in the area, including radars in missiles - In the dim and distant past our equivalent was called Dialect. They would also be monitoring the IDF strike frequencies and would been fed the Recognised Air Picture from their friends in the Syrian AD world, so either they were stupid, ignorant or arrogant clowns, take your pick
 
Does that mean instead of lobbing 20 SA5 Gammon (S-200)’s they’ll only need 5 SA10 (mustn’t) Grumble (S-300)’s to shoot down the next Russian aircraft that makes the mistake of landing over 20 minutes after an attack by IDF planes in an area way to the north of the SAM batteries?

Israel trained against Russian-made air defense system in Greece: sources | Reuters
3 years ago, apparently training was undertaken against S-300 aka SA10 aka Grumble.
There are some features of S-200 AD system that make it not sufficiently effective. Yes, it is long range system with ability to down air-targets in distances up to 200km and more. But it is not precise enough. Its radar is not so sophisticated as modern ones. S-200 is unble to detect and target low flying objects (lower than 300m).
It is not right to underestimate the Syrians, their level of knowledge. Merely their hardware is obsolete, outdated. With modern S-300 the Syrians would make Israeli air-strikes not as simple as one could think.
Compare these cars (both are VW Golf)


Place the best driver sportsman on the first car and he would be far beyond me on a good autobahn if I would be given the second car.
 
Coots are sigint collectors, they'd know what radars were operating in the area, including radars in missiles - In the dim and distant past our equivalent was called Dialect. They would also be monitoring the IDF strike frequencies and would been fed the Recognised Air Picture from their friends in the Syrian AD world, so either they were stupid, ignorant or arrogant clowns, take your pick
Blimey, Dialect...there’s a rave from the grave!

However, it was merely a modified Vulcan RWR and severely limited in comparison to a dedicated SIGINT platform such as the COOT in terms of coverage (freq and area); nor did it hoover up COMINT.

It was moderately useful at Olympus where the EW environment was a little quieter and it was augmented by an electronic data base which partially offset the lack of training the operators received. However, Dialect was utterly useless at the UK CRCs. I even recall that it could only be rotated about 400 degrees before you had to go back the other way; otherwise the cable would detach!

Regards,
MM
 
There are some features of S-200 AD system that make it not sufficiently effective. Yes, it is long range system with ability to down air-targets in distances up to 200km and more. But it is not precise enough. Its radar is not so sophisticated as modern ones. S-200 is unble to detect and target low flying objects (lower than 300m).
It is not right to underestimate the Syrians, their level of knowledge. Merely their hardware is obsolete, outdated. With modern S-300 the Syrians would make Israeli air-strikes not as simple as one could think.
Compare these cars (both are VW Golf)


Place the best driver sportsman on the first car and he would be far beyond me on a good autobahn if I would be given the second car.
The point, liar, is that the Syrians obviously can't be trusted with the older system.
So why do you think they could be trusted with the new?
Unless you intend them not to operate it, and assume that it is going to be operated by deniable Russian regulars, like the ones who so competently murdered nearly 300 passengers on MH17?
 
Blimey, Dialect...there’s a rave from the grave!

However, it was merely a modified Vulcan RWR and severely limited in comparison to a dedicated SIGINT platform such as the COOT in terms of coverage (freq and area); nor did it hoover up COMINT.

It was moderately useful at Olympus where the EW environment was a little quieter and it was augmented by an electronic data base which partially offset the lack of training the operators received. However, Dialect was utterly useless at the UK CRCs. I even recall that it could only be rotated about 400 degrees before you had to go back the other way; otherwise the cable would detach!

Regards,
MM
Sodium lights jammed the kit as you know, and how very dare you? I was the best Dialect op on shift, and it's an A360 Gronza if you really need to know......... :);)
 
What actually is the argument here? I have tried reading the thread but what exactly is being suggested? A deliberate act and not and accident? That the Israelis somehow orchestrated it? Or was the West?
 
There are some features of S-200 AD system that make it not sufficiently effective. Yes, it is long range system with ability to down air-targets in distances up to 200km and more. But it is not precise enough. Its radar is not so sophisticated as modern ones. S-200 is unble to detect and target low flying objects (lower than 300m).
It is not right to underestimate the Syrians, their level of knowledge. Merely their hardware is obsolete, outdated. With modern S-300 the Syrians would make Israeli air-strikes not as simple as one could think.
Compare these cars (both are VW Golf)


Place the best driver sportsman on the first car and he would be far beyond me on a good autobahn if I would be given the second car.
Err, one is a VW Polo and one is a VW Golf. If that is the standard of recce in Russian SAM forces, then no wonder they whacked one of their own.

********
 
Respectable newspaper Kommersant using its sources in Russian MoD reports about planned transfer of S-300 AD systems to Syria. Previously Russian MoD told about appropriate measures to exclude further Il-20 type tragedies.
Минобо объявило виня

The systems could be given to the Syrians and also Russian specialists could be sent to help the Syrians to operate S-300 properly.
Respectable Russian newspaper?
No such animal.
 
The mentioned article in Kommersant gives description of the tragedy from point of view of Russian MoD
Минобо объявило виня
Time is Moscow time
the reconnaissance aircraft monitored the situation in the de-escalation zone of Idlib from 20:31 Moscow time. At that time, a group of four F-16 fighters flew from the territory of Israel to strike at industrial facilities in Syria
It should be said that all movements of Israeli (and other) aircrafts are being monitored from Russian bases and warships.
Having flown over the neutral waters of the Mediterranean Sea, they occupied a patrol area 90 km west of Latakia. At 21:39 a representative of the Israeli Air Force command notified the command of the Russian troops in Syria about the impending strike, calling targets in the north of the country.
Note that Latakia is on the Western part of Syria.
A minute later [21:40], the F-16 dropped the controlled GBU-39 airbombs in Latakia province, located in the west of Syria. The Defense Ministry believes that the Israeli officer misled the Russian military, who learned about the plans of the Israeli Air Force not in advance (the relevant agreements were reached as early as 2015), but directly at the time of strikes.
The commander of the IL-20M, located in the north of Syria, was instructed to leave the area of the mission to the south, and then return to the air base of Khmeimim. But time was lost.
At 21:51 the Syrian air defenses began to repel the attack by launching anti-aircraft missile launches. By this time, the F-16 quartet again occupied the duty zone in the air 70 km west of the coast of Syria, having activated the EW assets and, probably, preparing for a second strike.
Russian MoD claims that Israel aircrafts didn't return to their bases immediately but remained near Syrian coast.
Eight minutes later, at 21:59, one of the fighters headed for the coast of Syria, along the way going on rapprochement with the IL-20M, who made the approach to land. This was accepted by the calculations of the S-200E for a new attack by Israeli aviation.
at 22:03 an anti-aircraft missile struck a reconnaissance aircraft as a larger and nearer target.
At 22:07 the reconnaissance plane disappeared from the radar screens, but none of the F-16s went into its airspace, continuing to be on air for more than half an hour.
 
The BBC quotes Russia as saying:

'In parts of the Mediterranean adjacent to Syria, there will be radio-electronic jamming of satellite navigation, onboard radars and communications systems used by military aircraft attacking targets in Syrian territory," he said.'

I don't know whether this means by Russia but Russian EW equipment and tactics are reportedly very capable. The jamming, if successful, of a broad range of technologies, may be a more important aspect of today's news than the supply of the S-300.
 
Respectable Russian newspaper?
No such animal.
No, Kommersant newspaper is a serious edition oriented to business people who need exact information, not agitprop.
The newspaper is described by BBC this way
BBC NEWS | Europe | The press in Russia
The liberal Kommersant newspaper is one of Russia's leading business broadsheets and the flagship of the Kommersant publishing house. Originally a weekly publication, the paper expanded in 1992, styling itself as Russia's first business daily. The paper now describes itself as "one of the most authoritative and influential publications for Russia's decision-makers" and reports that more than half of its readers are managers or "specialists". Once owned by the exiled tycoon Boris Berezovsky, the paper was bought in August 2006 by Alisher Usmanov, a steel tycoon who also runs a subsidiary of Gazprom and whose other interests include a major stake in the English football club Arsenal.
I understand why this information about transfer of S-300 systems to Syria appeared namely in Kommersant. It is a serious newspaper and information here is reliable. But there is no confirmation of it in any official state-run agency. So it is unofficial but trustworthly information.
 
Err, one is a VW Polo and one is a VW Golf. If that is the standard of recce in Russian SAM forces, then no wonder they whacked one of their own.

********
I picked a random picture and I'm not an expert in old cars. Well, capabilities S-200 and S-300 can be compared as capabilities of old Polo and modern Golf.
It will very interesting to monitor duel between Israeli aircrafts and S-300.
 
The BBC quotes Russia as saying:

'In parts of the Mediterranean adjacent to Syria, there will be radio-electronic jamming of satellite navigation, onboard radars and communications systems used by military aircraft attacking targets in Syrian territory," he said.'

I don't know whether this means by Russia but Russian EW equipment and tactics are reportedly very capable. The jamming, if successful, of a broad range of technologies, may be a more important aspect of today's news than the supply of the S-300.
The jamming of GPS signals looks this way. Incoming GPS signal is being repeated several times by jamming device and it fools GPS recievers. Russian GLONASS can not be jammed in such a simple way.
 
Russia are now repeating their claim (first mentioned here by RGJ) about the IDF using Ru a/c to mask their movements.

Russia also contradicted Israel's claims that the plane was downed while Israeli jets had returned to Israeli territory. "The Israeli jets saw the Russian Ilyushin Il-20 and used it as a shield against the anti-aircraft missiles, while they carried on maneuvering in the region," the Defense Ministry said.

Russia: Israel to blame for downed plane over Syria, deliberately misled us
 
No, the plant now belongs (more than 50% of share) to Renaul-Nissan corporation. All modern cars are created on Renault-Nissan platforms.
AvtoVAZ - Wikipedia
AvtoVAZ's current majority owner is Alliance Rostec Auto B.V. with 64.6%, which is a joint venture of the Renault–Nissan–Mitsubishi Alliance with 40.7% and Russian company Rostec with 21.2% of shares
Following the latest recapitalization of the company in 2016, Renault holds over 50% of the company, making it a subsidiary of the French group
On the last picture you see a car produced in Russian plant owned (over 50%) by French car manufacturing group.
 
The Russian air force for one, cretin.

Remember, it was the SYRIANS who shot down a RUSSIAN aircraft with old RUSSIAN made missiles.

Unless of course, it was a highly trained Russian PVO officer like you who pressed the big red button and killed his own countrymen out of stupidity and incompetence.
 

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