• This is a stand-to for an incoming competition, one of our most expensive yet.
    Later this week we're going to be offering the opportunity to Win £270 Rab Neutrino Pro military down jacket
    Visit the thread at that link above and Watch it to be notified as soon as the competition goes live

Russian Surveillance Aircraft lost at sea off Syria

I kindly ask you again - where and when the attack has happened?
I remember it and , no, I am not going to look it up for you.

You need to get your notes together and a proper handover sorted out. Maybe set up a database with appropriate query terms.

If you expect a sceptical audience to believe the things you write, you need continuity between posters. It shouldn't be too difficult to set up for a professional engineer and former air defence officer.
 
I remember it and , no, I am not going to look it up for you.

You need to get your notes together and a proper handover sorted out. Maybe set up a database with appropriate query terms.

If you expect a sceptical audience to believe the things you write, you need continuity between posters. It shouldn't be too difficult to set up for a professional engineer and former air defence officer.

Don't you just feel so sorry for the poor lambs???

The biggest use of cruise missiles in recent times.
The event made the news throughout the whole world
Putin made speeeches about it
The Russian government condemned it
The Russians were basically threatening retaliation to th USA
It was the only CM attack from the US on a Syrian air base
The trolls commented on it
KGB resident posters commented on it.
There were loads of posts on ARRSE about the attack


And yet the duty idiot tonight would like us to believe he can't remember it.

I'm off out to buy some bread, better take an umbrella in case there are hoards of Russian pigs flying overhead!!!!!
 
And yet the duty idiot tonight would like us to believe he can't remember it.
They want to control the narrative. That is fine for an individual but is a bit off when the avatar is a collection of individuals proposing two things:

Russia is stronk

Russia is victim.

in a state employed activity.
 
I remember it and , no, I am not going to look it up for you.

You need to get your notes together and a proper handover sorted out. Maybe set up a database with appropriate query terms.

If you expect a sceptical audience to believe the things you write, you need continuity between posters. It shouldn't be too difficult to set up for a professional engineer and former air defence officer.
AND WASH THOSE MUGS BEFORE THE END OF SHIFT- TONYA IS NOT HAPPY CLEANING UP AFTER YOU
 
They want to control the narrative. That is fine for an individual but is a bit off when the avatar is a collection of individuals proposing two things:

Russia is stronk

Russia is victim.

in a state employed activity.
If I were a cynic I could easily think that tonight’s KGB resident is a newby and wasn’t sure what previous thread I was referring to so couldn’t look back to see what ‘they’ had said earlier, so the newby asked for news sources in order to look up the ‘state official facts’ on that raid so that they could just spout those ‘facts’ and not have to pretend they had suddenly remembered what (in reality a different person) they had said some months ago.

Also, as a cynic I couldn’t help note that there was an instant fact file of Russian spin out up as soon as Hector mentioned a different raid!!!

Even as a non cynic it is somewhat unusual for ‘a single person’ to need to be shown news sources on an item in order to remember ‘their own words and opinions’ on a subject :)
 
As an add on to my above post.

Did any of you get the impression that ‘KGB resident had no knowledge of previous conversations or arguments ‘they’ may have had with you in the past.

That’s just as silly as ‘them’ not knowing what ‘they’ have previous said about things in Syria..........

It’s less like RUSSIA STRONK
And more like
RUSSIA FAKE
 
I would like to repeat that it is imaginary scenario. The new Russian leader after propper warning orders to bomb Israeli military airports with very simple condition to stop it - terminate Israeli air-raids in Syria...
I notice that in true Russian troll style, you guys are now modifying your questions and using increasingly fanciful scenarios to bombard the discussion, divert attention from and obfuscate the harsh truth: an ally Moscow is supporting shot down one of your own aircraft, killing 14 of your own servicemen in the process, using a missile system and training your own nation provided.

Russia just now is in a conflict with the USA and NATO. So there is nothing new. There are sanctions, expulsions of diplomats, What the West could do if Russia would bomb Israeli military airports?...The West would urge Israel to stop air-raids in Syria to calm the conflict...
Last time I checked, Russia was not in a shooting war with NATO although I strongly suspect that Moscow would relish a miscalculation over Syria or the Eastern Med; perhaps that explains the initial Russian suggestion that a French ship had fired a SAM.

However, I have no doubt whatsoever that the US, NATO and several Middle Eastern Nation’s would support Israel militarily including if necessary engaging Russian forces attacking the country.

We’re not talking about ‘urging Israel to stop air-raids’, we’re talking about defending Israel from Russian air attacks which would be completely disproportionate to occasional precision Israeli attacks on Syria.

...But what Washington could do in this imaginary situation? In fact nothing. Washington with support of its numerous allies was unable to remove Assad from power. Maybe you believe that Washington is almighty?...
No nation is almighty and that includes Russia.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Russian aggression of the sort you suggest would unify the US and other nations to defend Israel. That would, as a minimum, involve the engagement of Russian forces engaged in such offensive ops such as bombers, submarines and ships.

...As maximum it would end by empty words as in the cases with Georgia, Crimea, Donbass.
What HMG could do? Nothing...
Irrespective of the legitimacy of Moscow’s actions in those locations, all are former Soviet republics with large Russian minorities and which undoubtedly remain under Russian influence.

The Middle East and Mediterranean is a very different undertaking where Russian presence relies upon the acquiescence of NATO, Arab and US forces to transit their airspace.

... in comparison with Syria, Egypt - yes. But in comparison with Russia it is a small state with bounded resources, with supplies routes that can be easily cut. In the case of military conflict tankers with oil would be legitimate targets...
The logistics of Russian bases in the Region are equally - if not more - vulnerable. Unlike Israel however, they would be unlikely to receive much logistic support from surrounding nations; if they did, that could be severely hindered or stopped.

Any Russian attacks against oil tankers in the Mediterranean and Red Sea would result in a far wider conflagration and UN condemnation (albeit probably vetoed by Moscow and Beijing). The US and NATO would certainly be able to legitimately attack any forces targeting shipping in international waters.

Such unprecedented offensive operations by Russia would also demand Moscow diverted resources from elsewhere to fight through numerous strategic choke points such as the Straights of Gibraltar, the Bospherous, Red Sea and Suez.

...It is impossible without fuel. Meanwhile the Palestinians would use this situation and Hezbollah as well...
Once again, Russian forces in the Region also require POL while the Palestinians and Hezbollah are never going to be in a position to do much beyond agitate riots and conduct rocket attacks, let alone invade large portions of Israel.

...Without nuclear weapons, step by step Israeli military potential could be reduced to almost zero level...
Not without unacceptable losses to Russian forces and, perhaps more pertinently, Moscow’s strategic interests.

...At time Israel used to bomb Lebanon at will. Hezbollah retaliated by missiles. As a result the last Lebanese war was unleashed. After it Israel dare not to bomb Lebanon because it understands language of force. So why Hezbollah was able to force Israel to stop air-raids in Lebanon but Russia is unable to stop air-raids in Syria?...
Oh please! Are you honestly suggesting Israel has reduced (not stopped) kinetic action against targets in Lebanon due to Hezbollah?!

But yes, Russian forces could be isolated in Syria and their operations stopped.

...How many devoted friends Israel has. With such friends it doesn't need enemies...
I think you underestimate the relationships which have quietly evolved between Israel and several Arab nations, particularly Jordan. Many see Iran - and particularly their presence in Syria - as a far greater concern, particularly since they started their adventure in Iraq and Syria.

...Israel is really a small (but of course very influental) country, but you hugely overestimates its capabilities...
I would suggest you also overestimateate the ability of Russian forces in the Region to maintain operations at a credible tempo without supplies and when being constrained by several other means.

...Mr.Zhirinovsky btw is half-Jewish himself. He is political clown and will not be elected.
As for moron Putin then he would appear in a very difficult situation if during the next air-raid even one Russian serviceman would be killed under Israeli bomb or missile.

Conclusion (of course you probably disagree with it) - it would be wise for Israel to stop air-raids in Syria at least in the near future.
I do. But once again, this is not about Israeli air raids in Syria; it’s about one of your allies shooting down one of your aircraft with equipment you provided. As ever, you are trying to obfuscate the argument and doubtless you will come back with more ‘hypothetical scenarios.’ So I will cease further engagement with you after this post.

Russia could be a great nation. But trolling and attempts to obfuscate such as you do bring your country no credit whatever.

Finally, if Gen Norkin is suggesting the fault lies entirely with Israel, he’s being very disingenuous. Then again, if he is who I think he is, I’m not surprised.

Ultimately, this storm in a tea cup is because one of YOUR allies shot down one of YOUR aircraft with missiles and training YOUR nation provided.

Your ‘hypothetical scenario’ and any amount of bluster from Norkin doesn’t change those facts; the fact that Israel conducted a precision attack agains Hezbollah and/or IRGC targets is almost irrelevant. Meanwhile, you should also remember that Israel is using those precision attacks to reduce the offensive capability of IRGC and terrorist organisations which are attacking and presenting a direct threat to it’s own territory and people. Those IRGC and terrorists are being hosted by an ally of Moscow which Russia is supporting.

I’m far from Israel’s greatest fan. However, perhaps it should be Russia who should be discouraging Assad’s willingness to provide a safe haven to Iranian and Hezbollah forces rather than the West discouraging occasional Israeli attacks.

...Are you now telling us that the much vaunted S300 or S400 (whichever it is) can’t identify an attack profile by F16’s? Am I the only one to find this contradiction a little surprising?
The SAM which downed the COOT was an S-200, known as the SA-5 GAMMON by NATO. That dates from the 1960s unlike the far more modern S-300 and S-400 although all are long-range, strategic SAM systems.

However, I suspect the Syrian S-200s have been upgraded by Russia but - even in their original state - were more than capable of discriminating a single large, slow moving turboprop aircraft, at low altitude, on approach to an airfield from several fast, manoeuvring fighters at medium to high altitude.

While Israeli EW was most likely severely degrading the SA of Syrian AD and SAM operators, it still points to a fundamental failure by the Syrians or Russian aircrew involved.

@Magic_Mushroom; you disagree. Are you saying that when the internal weapons bays are open to allow air-air ordnance to be employed that the F35 remains a stealthy platform?
As I’ve said a great many times here, ‘Stealth’ (or more correctly Low Observability (LO)) is not a binary quality which disappears the minute external stores are carried or weapons bays are opened.

In both the F-22 and F-35, the weapons bays are open for only a matter of seconds (I make it less than 6 in the video below) to eject the AAMs on their trapezes.


During that time there will be a slight increase in the otherwise tiny RCS of the launch aircraft. However, there are several factors which you should bear in mind:

1. A BVR shot using AIM-120, AIM-9X, Meteor or ASRAAM will almost certainly be nose on to the target. Therefore, even assuming the target is itself illuminating the launcher, the RCS increase will be limited to that presented by the front edges of the bay doors and trapeze.

2. During a WVR shot using any of the above missiles (but most likely AIM-9X or ASRAAM) or gun, the fight has already pressed to where RCS is of reduced relevance.

3. In all of the above scenarios, a minor and very brief increase in RCS is at the point of launch. Even if the target briefly detects the F-35, there are already probably multiple missiles in the air and he needs to start thinking about defending against them...even if he’s not already in the ‘No-Escape Zone’ of the weapon or weapons coming his way.

4. EA (eg ‘traditional’ jamming or something more exotic such as multiple ADM-160 Miniature Air Launched Decoys) from either the F-35 or supporting assets may also be present, degrading the targets SA and/or raising the noise threshold on his radar scope such that he’d be unable to paint even a non-LO asset. The brief exposure of parts of an F-35’s weapons bay under such circumstances is again pretty irrelevant.

So ultimately, yes, in the majority of occasions when an F-35 briefly opens its weapons bays to engage an airborne target, that will have negligible or zero impact on both its RCS or the outcome of the engagement.

Regards,
MM
 
Stop acting an idiot.
How many US cruise missile attacks on a Syrian air base can you think of since Russia sent aircraft there to support the Assad regime, and also that someone typing under your avatar has commented on?

Oh, and before you try to derail from your previous question again.
Yes, when the Russian airforce killed British citizens who were soldiers fighting in ISIL they DID kill British soldiers...............

Just like when the USAF killed Russian soldiers.............

Who you have tried to sideline as mercenaries as you are too scared to admit they were fighting for the Russian/Syrian side and were not fighting against Russian or Syrian interests.

Just for clarity, the soldiers the USAF killed in the battle Hector mentioned WERE Russian soldiers.
However, you claimed that Russian soldiers were killed during US cruise missile attack on Syrian airbase.
Do you insist on it?
 
1) Last time I checked, Russia was not in a shooting war with NATO.
2) However, I have no doubt whatsoever that the US, NATO and several Middle Eastern Nation’s would support Israel militarily including if necessary engaging Russian forces attacking the country.
3) No nation is almighty and that includes Russia.
4) I have no doubt whatsoever that Russian aggression of the sort you suggest would unify the US and other nations to defend Israel.
5) The Middle East and Mediterranean is a very different undertaking where Russian presence relies upon the acquiescence of NATO, Arab and US forces to transit their airspace.
6) The logistics of Russian bases in the Region are equally - if not more - vulnerable. Unlike Israel however, they would be unlikely to receive much logistic support from surrounding nations.
7) Any Russian attacks against oil tankers in the Mediterranean and Red Sea would result in a far wider conflagration and UN condemnation.
1) However, there is ongoing geopolitical conflict between Russia and US/West
2) What ME nations would support Israel military? As for US/NATO then how 'military support' could look? Do you mean dirrect attacks on Russian bases in Syria or/and mainland Russia?
3) Absolutely agree.
4) Maybe, but the 'unification' in real life would not go far beyond diplomatic steps, common words and loud statements.
5) Look at the map. Caspian sea, Iran, Iraq, Syria. Russia is much closer to Israel than the USA and most of NATO countries. Do you suggest that USAF would try to down Russian war planes over Iraq?
6) What 'surrounding nations' do you mean?
7) If Israel attacks Russian bases in Syria then Russia could declare a state of war with designated war zone where bombings of tankers with oil would be absolutely legitimate.
8 ) Such unprecedented offensive operations by Russia would also demand Moscow diverted resources from elsewhere to fight through numerous strategic choke points such as the Straights of Gibraltar, the Bospherous, Red Sea and Suez.
9) Once again, Russian forces in the Region also require POL while the Palestinians and Hezbollah are never going to be in a position to do much beyond agitate riots and conduct rocket attacks, let alone invade large portions of Israel.
10) Oh please! Are you honestly suggesting Israel has reduced (not stopped) kinetic action against targets in Lebanon due to Hezbollah?!
11) But yes, Russian forces could be isolated in Syria and their operations stopped.
12) I think you underestimate the relationships which have quietly evolved between Israel and several Arab nations, particularly Jordan. Many see Iran - and particularly their presence in Syria - as a far greater concern, particularly since they started their adventure in Iraq and Syria.
13) I would suggest you also overestimateate the ability of Russian forces in the Region to maintain operations at a credible tempo without supplies and when being constrained by several other means.
8 ) I don't speak about a full-scale war, only about limited air-operation to force Israel to stop air-raids in Syria. The new Russian leader could sign an agreement with Assad about mutual defense. According to UN charter, any country or group of countries has(have) right for self-defense.
9) It is a matter of opinion. I suppose that enemies of Israel and it has a lot of them would use this situation.
10) As I'm ware Israel doesn't bomb Hezbollah forces or objects in Lebanon for years. Correct me if I'm wrong.
11) What do you mean by isolation? Do you suggest that USAF would down Russian war planes? Maybe Turkey would close Bosphorus? Maybe, US/NATO navies would sink Russian ships?
12) Maybe.
13) Maybe.
 
Last edited:
No one wants to fight street to street, but the Russians have bombed the islamists to de facto defeat. They won’t want Trumpd no bombing zone, they will want the fighters exported to a ,3rd country.
We're short of asylum seekers in the UK..
 
He-he-he. In fact, both Semits - Jews and Arabs are very cooperative with Russians in the ongoing investigation, because they are clever enough. Persians and Frenches are cooperative too. Only Septics and Underseptics keep silence (not a very clever behaviour in the circumstances).
Yep.
Meths addled russofascist xenopobe Anti Semite sex offender has been let back into the building.
Still, they let the KGB Consortium in, so the Russian Group 4ski are known to have very low standards.
 
Yep.
Meths addled russofascist xenopobe Anti Semite sex offender has been let back into the building.
Still, they let the KGB Consortium in, so the Russian Group 4ski are known to have very low standards.
Is RUSSIA STILL STRONK? Is he still playing 40K or has he discovered girls yet? Last time we spoke he was under a lot of pressure......exam time I guess
 
Last edited:
12) Maybe.
13) Maybe.
The whole of your ‘argument’ is based on a scenario or ‘what if’ somebody took over the Russian leadership and decided to go against the reported 2015 agreement. It’s not going to happen until 2024, unless there’s a ‘Winter Palace’ moment.

None of your ‘argument’ addresses the tenet of the thread. That is the shooting down of a Russian IL-20 supporting ‘anti-terrorist’ operations in Syria by Syrian AD Units, trained and supplied by Russia.

The points which need to be addressed are Sy AD units training, in particular IFF training and their willingness to lob large volumes of SAMs into the air in the vain attempt at hitting their actual target. It’s worked once with an Israeli F16, but has now led to the downing of a Russian aircraft and the crew being killed.

We’ll never agree on why Israel is striking IRGC (Quds Force), Iranian proxies and Syrian forces supporting Quds Force, Hz and other Iranian allies. But sorting out Sy AD and what they’re trying to achieve is clearly the objective to prevent another shoot down.
 
To speak of 'training' - reports of random missile launches and a panicked 'shoot into the sky' type AD are coming out of Syria- a style of AD SAM employment common to Arab countries that have benefited from Soviet training and equipment - incompetent clowns, say, @KGB_resident, with your extensive knowledge in this matter, did you train members of the Syrian AD net? It would explain a lot about your grasp of the facts around the Heroic Red Army shooting-down that unarmed civilian airliner going about it's lawful business over Ukraine a while back.

(Duty shift, read the notes on this, we don't want to look any more stupid than we have to, and WASH YOUR MUGS UP!!!! - Tonya)
 
You really are back to your collective worst aren't you. Getting very close to putting you on Ignore.

Can we have the one who sometimes posts interesting things back on duty soon please?
Haven't you heard?

He had a tragic door knob related accident.

Although there's no proof of that, it's all just baseless Western speculation.
 
However, you claimed that Russian soldiers were killed during US cruise missile attack on Syrian airbase.
Do you insist on it?
Show me where I claimed 'Russian soldiers' were killed?

By the way, you can't show me or anyone else that as I NEVER said that.

I said 'some Russians' were killed. The attack was to an air base, an air base with Russians and Russian Air Force personnel on.

And I'll say it again, SOMEONE TYPING AS THE KGB RESIDENT commented on the raid at the rime, so bearing in mind you are typing as KGB resident it was supposed to be YOU that typed those replies and yet yesterday you didn't have any knowledge of what 'you' had typed and asked for help saying you could have missed the raid.........the ONLY American cruise missile strike on a Syrian air base and one you had commented on.

You were either:
Telling lies
Not the origianl poster who replied.

I have told you, I'm not going to play into your game, it's just like when you asked if the Russian Air Force had killed British soldiers when they killed British citizens fighting for ISIL, I suspect you weren't expecting anyone to say yes and that it would shut down the discussion about the Russian soldiers who the Americans killed in the battle Hector referred to.............

They WERE Russians
They WERE soldiers
They WERE killed by American forces!
 
......as Russian mercenary forces deployed in Syria are members of the Russian Armed Forces under 'a flag of convenience' under the control of Moscow, rather like putin's forces in Ukraine or any former Soviet vassal state currently suffering from an 'uprising' 'insurgency' or 'frozen conflict' it's safe to call them Soviet Russian Soldiers
 
Russin MoD sounded the timeline (Moscow time)
Израиль нарушил договоренность: Минобороны огласило данные о катастрофе Ил-20
21:39 Israeli colonel warned about the strike via telephone
21:40 The strike happened
One of F-16's approached IL-20
22:03 Il-20 was hit by Syrian missile.
22:07 Il-20 vanished from radar screens
22:29 The Israelis were informed about rescue operation
22:40 Israeli planes abandoned the zone
22:53 The Israelis proposed their help.
 
Last edited:
Show me where I claimed 'Russian soldiers' were killed?

By the way, you can't show me or anyone else that as I NEVER said that.

I said 'some Russians' were killed. The attack was to an air base, an air base with Russians and Russian Air Force personnel on.

And I'll say it again, SOMEONE TYPING AS THE KGB RESIDENT commented on the raid at the rime, so bearing in mind you are typing as KGB resident it was supposed to be YOU that typed those replies and yet yesterday you didn't have any knowledge of what 'you' had typed and asked for help saying you could have missed the raid.........the ONLY American cruise missile strike on a Syrian air base and one you had commented on.

You were either:
Telling lies
Not the origianl poster who replied.

I have told you, I'm not going to play into your game, it's just like when you asked if the Russian Air Force had killed British soldiers when they killed British citizens fighting for ISIL, I suspect you weren't expecting anyone to say yes and that it would shut down the discussion about the Russian soldiers who the Americans killed in the battle Hector referred to.............

They WERE Russians
They WERE soldiers
They WERE killed by American forces!
I suppose that Russians on Syrian airbase highly likely are soldiers.
You wrote
Meanwhile, for a clue as to what might happen, cast your mind back to to the American cruise missile attack on a Syrian air base where some Russians were also killed if you want to see what might happen.
So you wrote that there were US CM attacks in Syria. Of course it is true.
But you also claim that during one of such attacks some Russians were killed. It is something new for me.
I doubt that it really happened.
Without you reference to reliable news-source I regard further discussion pointless.

You may continue to present yourself as self-feeding shiteater. It is your right.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top