Russian Surveillance Aircraft lost at sea off Syria

You're quite right BB, your thinking is old, about 40 years out of date, but thanks for playing - the appropriate unclass AP on Air Defence Doctrine is online somewhere if you really want to go into it. You brought up guns and dogfighting.....

Your starter for ten
https://assets.publishing.service.g...oads/attachment_data/file/43482/JWP363Ed2.pdf
I did indeed, in the context of BVR being a huge advantage to the F35.

If you're discounting the possibility of a turning gunfight, fair enough.

The F4 wasn't equipped with a gun because it wouldnt need one, because it's missiles where all that where required.

Remind us how that turned out?
 
I did indeed, in the context of BVR being a huge advantage to the F35.

If you're discounting the possibility of a turning gunfight, fair enough.

The F4 wasn't equipped with a gun because it wouldnt need one, because it's missiles where all that where required.

Remind us how that turned out?
It's an extremely unlikely scenario, but let's assume that all the holes in the metaphorical cheese line up and somehow, our F-35 driver finds him/herself in a WVR fight. It isn't impossible.

The answer as to how it would turn out isn't clear, largely thanks to classification issues, but in general is 'nowhere near as badly as David Axe and Pierre Sprey would like you to think'.

What is open source is that as the F-35's FCS has evolved, F-16 drivers who arrogantly decided to indulge in a spot of close in fighting while their aircraft was carrying underwing tanks [which, of course, they couldn't punch off as it was an exercise] are now going back to the crew room asking how they've just had their posteriors handed to them by an aeroplane which after killing them (sometimes more than once) after the merge has cheerfully headed off to the range to drop the 2x 1,000lb class weapons in its bomb bays...

F-35 has an ultimate limit of 50 degrees AOA. The F-16? 29 degrees...

The Norwegian test pilot, Dolby Hanche:

Yet another quality of the F-35 becomes evident in this flight regime; using the rudder pedals I can command the nose of the airplane from side to side. The F-35 reacts quicker to my pedal inputs than the F-16 would at its maximum AOA (the F-16 would actually be out of control at this AOA). This gives me an alternate way of pointing the airplane where I need it to, in order to threaten an opponent. This «pedal turn» yields an impressive turn rate, even at low airspeeds. In a defensive situation, the "pedal turn" provides me the ability to rapidly neutralize a situation, or perhaps even reverse the roles entirely.​

So while I concur that there are all sorts of reasons why a WVR scenario is unlikely - even allowing for 'events, dear boy, events' - I'd not want to go dancing with an F-35 any time soon, even in an Su-27 [not least since while trying to work out how to kill it, an F-22, Typhoon or F-15 of some stripe will have rocked up 7th Cavalry style and put an AAM through my head if the F-35 pilot hasn't done so already]. While there is, indeed, no kill like a guns kill, it's a little... retro.

Edit to add that BB asked about guns, hence my 'extremely unlikely'; WVR will, I suspect, not be routine but as MM suggests below, getting in visual range is far from a dead concept - but you tend to see AIM-9/ASRAAM, or even AIM-120 (obviously depending upon parameters) as the weapon of choice.
 
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My god, there’s some bollocks being posted here!

Some thoughts:

1. Before we dismiss the Russians or Syrians as SAM operators, some may wish to note that an RAF GR4 and USN FA-18C were both killed by US Patriot operators during GW2. Indeed, CAOC concern was such that friendly SIGINT was actually tasked to keep updating the position of US Army SAMs as the FLOT moved! Likewise, the USN accounted for an Iranian airliner and the RN shot down an AAC Gazelle in the Falklands; those that live in glass houses shouldn’t fire SAMs.

2. Modern Russian SAMs are probably the finest in the world.

3. While WVR remains by far the preferred engagement method, scenarios may still dictate VERY close in manoeuvring as alluded to by Archie above. The incredibly complex and constrained airspace over Syria has regularly seen F-22s, Typhoons, F-15Es, FA-18s, F-16s, Rafales and a variety of other types mixing it with Su-35s and other Russian and Syrian aircraft.

4. Russian pilots are professional and pretty competent these days; the gap has closed.

5. The F-35 can carry an A_A load out (2 x AIM-120, 2 x AIM-9X iirc) without compromising LO. Even when carrying external stores, it will enjoy a significant RCS advantage over an Su-35. Oh, and the F-35A and I variants both have cannon (as the F-4E did as far back as Vietnam, where guns kills were obtained by the type).

6. I doubt the Russians will do anything against the Israelis as the 2 have what I would refer to as their own symbiotic and mutually beneficial ‘special relationship’ with many overlapping interests.

Regards,
MM
 
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To #2.

How would compare THAAD to the S-400/500 system for the ABM role??
I’m unqualified to comment, but strongly suspect it would be comparable.

Regards,
MM
 
I found it more notable when Turkey shot a Russian plane down or when Syria shot a Turkish just down or when the Yanks malleted a lot of mercenaries by DeZ.

Is this change in tone related to the loss of face?

The memes promised me Russia was gonna be 'Putin the rebels to sleep' not getting shot down by half educated AD crews.
That time Russian military was partilly responsible. I believe that Turkish airspace was indeed violated, though insignificantly.
Now, we have 15 coffins, not 1 as in the case with Su-24. And such a situation could be repeated again and again.
Do Israelis understand how serious is the problem? Yes, of course. Btw, IAF head gen.Norkin arrives to Moscow to explain, to assure, to calm the situation.
Out of the theme or maybe not.
The party of Crooks and Thieves (so called 'The United Russia') failed miserably during partial governors elections happened 9 September. The Pension reform infuriated the Russians. Real approval rating of moron Putin is falling and this case with downed IL-20 only adds problems for Putin and ruling elites.
Many Russians (including me) ask a very natural question - what we (the Russians) are doing in Syria? What are our objectives, what is the final goal?
 
Just down 2-3 IAF jets and that's all.
Good Luck your dealing with a Well proven air force with combat experience Not fetal alcohol syndrome ground crew and pilots who make less than a prostitute and work for food. Hell even the Turks shot down russian aircraft so really how hard can it be?
 
Good Luck your dealing with a Well proven air force with combat experience Not fetal alcohol syndrome ground crew and pilots who make less than a prostitute and work for food. Hell even the Turks shot down russian aircraft so really how hard can it be?
1. I believe and hope that military confrontation between Israel and Russia will not happen
2. Israel is not NATO member
3. Russia is much stronger military than Israel.
4. Russia (in theory) could easily cause unacceptable damage to Israel.
 
(...) Many Russians (including me) ask a very natural question - what we (the Russians) are doing in Syria?
Winning, in case you've forgotten. Despite all the "Assad must go" talk from various western powers, Assad is still sitting in Damascus, the western and Gulf Arab backed FSA are irrelevant and nearly forgotten, most of the Islamist rebels such as al Nusra are either dead, on the run, or crouched in Idlib wondering how much time they have left.

What are our objectives, what is the final goal?
Russia's goals and objectives?
  • Defeat and destroy Islamist radicals who have connections to counterparts in Russia.
  • Ensure that these Islamist radicals do not have an ungoverned chaotic territory in which to shelter. This means leaving a functioning mostly secular state standing, unlike Libya, and unlike the likely near future of Afghanistan.
  • Prove that Russia is still a power to be reckoned with and capable of affecting world events.
  • Show that Russia won't abandon an ally in their hour of need.
  • Maintain a useful footprint on the edge of the Gulf oil bearing region.
  • Maintain influence in one of the states on the potential routes for natural gas pipelines from the Persian Gulf to Europe. This will help ensure that Gazprom will have influence over the terms and conditions under which gas is sold in Europe.
And all of this is why Moscow is not likely to throw it all away in a fit of pique over trouble caused by the Israelis. The Kremlin have a record of keeping their eye on the chessboard and not getting distracted by minor issues.

The deaths of the crewman of the aircraft is tragic, but in the grand scheme of things it is a minor tragedy.
 
1. Before we dismiss the Russians or Syrians as SAM operators, some may wish to note that an RAF GR4 and USN FA-18C were both killed by US Patriot operators during GW2. Indeed, CAOC concern was such that friendly SIGINT was actually tasked to keep updating the position of US Army SAMs as the FLOT moved! Likewise, the USN accounted for an Iranian airliner and the RN shot down an AAC Gazelle in the Falklands; those that live in glass houses shouldn’t fire SAMs.
Regards,
MM
Patriot Blue on Blues promptly stopped after an aggrieved US pilot fired a HARM at the next over enthusiastic Patriot battery that locked a friendly up and killed it. Amazing how fast you can teach people to operate properly when you apply sanctions that have real teeth.

The Russians avd Syrians over Syria? To get round western all pervasive and far better than theirs EW, they have fallen back on launch on bearing and command detonate... Red on Red waiting to happen. They just fire blindly at anything in the Sky. Doesn’t matter how mega your SAMs are if the other side can blind them and force you back to command mode.
 
That time Russian military was partilly responsible. I believe that Turkish airspace was indeed violated, though insignificantly.
Now, we have 15 coffins, not 1 as in the case with Su-24. And such a situation could be repeated again and again.
Do Israelis understand how serious is the problem? Yes, of course. Btw, IAF head gen.Norkin arrives to Moscow to explain, to assure, to calm the situation.
Out of the theme or maybe not.
The party of Crooks and Thieves (so called 'The United Russia') failed miserably during partial governors elections happened 9 September. The Pension reform infuriated the Russians. Real approval rating of moron Putin is falling and this case with downed IL-20 only adds problems for Putin and ruling elites.
Many Russians (including me) ask a very natural question - what we (the Russians) are doing in Syria? What are our objectives, what is the final goal?
God you talk bollocks. In the November 2015 incident on the Turkish border, the Su-24s had repeatedly violated Turkish airspace and were live-armed, attacking Turkmen rebel positions: indeed on the final and fatal run the Su-24 was on a bombing run when it was splashed with an AIM 9x. They had been repeatedly warned.
 
1. I believe and hope that military confrontation between Israel and Russia will not happen
2. Israel is not NATO member
3. Russia is much stronger military than Israel.
4. Russia (in theory) could easily cause unacceptable damage to Israel.
1. Correct, Russia would lose over Syria, fast
2. The US has its back 100% fight Israel, fight the USA
3. In numbers, and not over Syria.
4. How? Flood it with cheap vodka?
 
2. Israel is not NATO member
Israel ALSO has the capability to hit russia. Instant sunshine over jerusalem or Tel Aviv would be answered by instant sunshine over Moscow, St. Petersburg. Something the Nashi Jugend and Vlad need to consider as Vladdy and bois will lose the money they rape russia of....
3. Russia is much stronger military than Israel.
russia is at the end of a tenuous logistical line, without a viable fleet in the med or ground forces to hold terrain. Unless russia is willing to start world war 3 over its own stupidity of selling the Syrians the system which killed russians these threats are all mastabutory fantasy for Vlad bois
4. Russia (in theory) could easily cause unacceptable damage to Israel.
Imagine moscow a smoking hole in the ground for the next century, because the Israelis aren't Georgians, they can hit back
 
The IDF are no slouches either, they have routinely bested Russian equipment and they train to fight it just like we do. They have the numbers and technology over match to spank the Red Airforce.
If anything, they have a pretty good advantage in the fact that they are used to working with Russian stuff. They routinely upgrade older Russian planes and kit using Israeli hardware. The Indian Airforce, for example are good clients of theirs.
 

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