Russian subs stalk Trident in echo of Cold War

#2
The only thing surprising is that people seem surprised.
 

jim24

LE
Book Reviewer
#3
The Russians must be pissing them selves now that we have no Nimrods to shoo them away
 
#5
And in other news, British and American subs are chasing the Russians
It is actually slightly news that the Russians still have enough functioning boats for the task. They had their economy tank a few years before we did and a lot of their 'capability' rapidly tied itself up in Nezametnaya Cove. We saw, with Upholder / Chicoutimi how difficult it is to bring subs out of even competent storage.
 
#7
Sorry, should have known it had been covered before. I hadn't even searched, either! Tsk!:oops:
 
#8
Not exactly news - they want to know where we are, we want to know where they are. Timing seems to be the name of the game here - ASW is an asset which is hard to explain to many laymen (" what do you mean you're tracking Subs, them pesky Russians are rusting in harbour aren't they?") and with the SDSR decisions due this month, this sounds like an attempt to protect the ASW elements of the RN - both SSN and Frigates.

I noticed the line about playing the recording to the DT - this shows that either someone has just got away with the mother of all security breaches, or this was sanctioned at a very high level indeed to approach the media.
 
#9
#10
jim30 said:
I noticed the line about playing the recording to the DT - this shows that either someone has just got away with the mother of all security breaches, or this was sanctioned at a very high level indeed to approach the media.
I don't agree. To let someone with no expertise whatsoever hear what is said to be a submarine, with nothing other than a vague indication of where and when the recording was made, hardly constitutes a breach of security.
 
#11
Well I would be suprised if us oe the septics did not do the same sort of thing if the Russians lauched a new boat.

Stilts
 
#12
I don't agree. To let someone with no expertise whatsoever hear what is said to be a submarine, with nothing other than a vague indication of where and when the recording was made, hardly constitutes a breach of security.
Jim is a civvy who thinks because he sharpens pencils at the MOD he is in on military thinking and as clever as a general, or admiral, RNR mirror sailing weekends aside.

Jim your input would be ok if you didn't think you were churchill. You have an opinion, you work at the MOD, thats about it. Stop dribbling about your inside track on whats happening.
 
#13
Ord, you really are a strange sad and twisted little man. I'm very flattered by the attention that you pay me though, it does make me feel very special, even if you clearly have no clue about what you prattle on about. Now go back to dribbling in your incontince pants and drooling while nursey spoon feeds you, and leave threads like this to the non senile grown ups...

By the way, I don't think I'm Churchill, and if I post on something I don't know much about, or haven't experienced then I'll caveat my posts accordingly. I've never claimed to be 'on the inside', I've just done enough posts around the place, both in the UK and on operational tours, to have a good idea of how some parts of the system (particularly the Central Staffs) work, and why certain things like leaks happen the way that they do.

If you read around a little, you'll see enough hints to identify my background, and perhaps see why I often post on certain themes with the benefit of some limited 'inside knowledge' - usually because we're talking about things I work / worked on recently enough to know the major issues involved and why a report may or may not be utter BS. Thats no different to anyone else still serving on here, and is one of the reasons why this website works so well - there is a sufficient quantity of people who deal with the issues daily to make the discussion meaningful and based on experience.
 
#14
Joe- good points - my understanding is that actual recordings are considered highly classified, and its unlikely that they'd be played to random civvies without good (and high level) tacit approval (think Alan West and the 'briefcase by the canal' as an example here).

It is possible that they played a recording of a bath toy or something similar and said its a Russian Sub, and given the amateur nature of the DTs defence coverage, could have got away with it. The problem with the media though is that if they find out they've been made idiots of, they'll do what they can to get their own back. Thats a pretty high stakes game to play for the RN.

Ultimately though, the whole thing is like the 'disanding Gurkhas' or 'scrapping red arrows' articles that keep cropping up with tedious regularity. Its about trying to persuade people outside the military of your value, so that the cuts fall somewhere else.
 
#15
Joe- good points - my understanding is that actual recordings are considered highly classified, and its unlikely that they'd be played to random civvies without good (and high level) tacit approval (think Alan West and the 'briefcase by the canal' as an example here).

It is possible that they played a recording of a bath toy or something similar and said its a Russian Sub, and given the amateur nature of the DTs defence coverage, could have got away with it. The problem with the media though is that if they find out they've been made idiots of, they'll do what they can to get their own back. Thats a pretty high stakes game to play for the RN.
It is actually the noise signatures of our boats, as opposed to the Russian ones, that are the most sensitive. The frequency details of the artifacts on the recordings and the raw recordings themselves.

It is, of course, entirely possible that they did play a recording of an actual sub. If it was a Russian one, I'm sure our 'Good Friends" have their own equivalent of BUTEC and know exactly what their subs sound like. I'd also note that, unless tech has changed significantly, the fidelity of anything played back at human audible on office equipment isn't going to be much use to anyone - even the experienced sonar analysis specialists populating the UK media. A possibly slightly dodgy analogy - if it happened, it is closer to waving a classified file in front of a journo, so he can see the title and the PM, rather than letting him read the contents in detail and make notes.
 
#16
Agree with many of the points made previously. Each of the services is now briefing or 'leaking' selected stories to their pet journalists to stir up public concern prior to SDR. The classic example a year or two back were shots of the Eurofighter 'intercepting' Russian Tupelov 'Bear' reconnaisance aircraft. How it must have gladdened the eyes of the senior crabs to see billions of pounds worth of largely pointless taxpayers' money doing the job it was designed to do 20 years previously. The submarines story is very similar. These guys just can't get away from the Cold War because in the new world there just isn't the same justification for large chunks of kit.

Only the Army which has borne the brunt of the Blair Years Wars has successfully adapted to modern warfare as it is being fought now. I left 10 years ago and was amazed at the way the kit has moved on in recent years. The British infantryman finally has something like the equipment he deserves. SDR will leave the Army with fewer tanks and less artillery, getting rid of the last remnants of the Cold War armoury.

Incidentally, I think Liam Fox is potentially bad news for the Army. I enjoyed Clive Fairweather's comment about him; "I don't think Fox likes the Army very much. I think Fox thinks he's cleverer than the Army, but he's not."
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#17
How nice for Trews to be able to forecast the shape of the threat in fifty (or even twenty) years' time.
 
#18
Agree with many of the points made previously. Each of the services is now briefing or 'leaking' selected stories to their pet journalists to stir up public concern prior to SDR. The classic example a year or two back were shots of the Eurofighter 'intercepting' Russian Tupelov 'Bear' reconnaisance aircraft. How it must have gladdened the eyes of the senior crabs to see billions of pounds worth of largely pointless taxpayers' money doing the job it was designed to do 20 years previously. The submarines story is very similar. These guys just can't get away from the Cold War because in the new world there just isn't the same justification for large chunks of kit.

Only the Army which has borne the brunt of the Blair Years Wars has successfully adapted to modern warfare as it is being fought now. I left 10 years ago and was amazed at the way the kit has moved on in recent years. The British infantryman finally has something like the equipment he deserves. SDR will leave the Army with fewer tanks and less artillery, getting rid of the last remnants of the Cold War armoury.

Incidentally, I think Liam Fox is potentially bad news for the Army. I enjoyed Clive Fairweather's comment about him; "I don't think Fox likes the Army very much. I think Fox thinks he's cleverer than the Army, but he's not."
I would suggest there is some serious internal debate as to the efficacy of the Army's ability to change. There are threads galore about this all over ARRSE!
 
#20
Agree with many of the points made previously. Each of the services is now briefing or 'leaking' selected stories to their pet journalists to stir up public concern prior to SDR. The classic example a year or two back were shots of the Eurofighter 'intercepting' Russian Tupelov 'Bear' reconnaisance aircraft. How it must have gladdened the eyes of the senior crabs to see billions of pounds worth of largely pointless taxpayers' money doing the job it was designed to do 20 years previously. The submarines story is very similar. These guys just can't get away from the Cold War because in the new world there just isn't the same justification for large chunks of kit.

Only the Army which has borne the brunt of the Blair Years Wars has successfully adapted to modern warfare as it is being fought now. I left 10 years ago and was amazed at the way the kit has moved on in recent years. The British infantryman finally has something like the equipment he deserves. SDR will leave the Army with fewer tanks and less artillery, getting rid of the last remnants of the Cold War armoury.

Incidentally, I think Liam Fox is potentially bad news for the Army. I enjoyed Clive Fairweather's comment about him; "I don't think Fox likes the Army very much. I think Fox thinks he's cleverer than the Army, but he's not."
Isn't it curious how the terms 'Cold War' and 'Cold War mentality' are being wheeled out so often at the moment to disparage anyone arguing for balanced, inter-dependent defences and isn't it unsporting of our potential enemies to continue building, acquiring and employing nasty aircraft and submarines? I see the Iranians have just unveiled some new home-grown types of submarine (link) but I'm sure a couple of infantry platoons can prevent them from threatening our oil supplies from the Gulf; or, unlike the North Koreans, are the Iranians unlikely to be bold enough to use them in anger?

By the way, the Army isn't the only service that's been busy in sandy places over the past 10 years; I believe the RAF, Royal Marines, Fleet Air Arm and other parts of the Naval Service have had some presence there, too. Other things have been happening elsewhere as well. I recommend you read the recent RUSI report Why Things Don't Happen - Silent Principles of National Security.
 

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