Russian navy could sink Norwegian warships.

#1
From formal point of view Russian navy has right to attack and sink Norwegian warships.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1136441.ece

The Russian trawler Elektron had been stopped and boarded by the Norwegian Coast Guard on Saturday morning, in the Barents Sea near the border of an area where fishing rights are disputed.
...
The two vessels then started sailing for Tromsø, in northern Norway, but the trawler suddenly changed course on Sunday. The trawler's crew claims it had been told by Russian authorities not to follow the Norwegian orders.
...
The Norwegian Coast Guard vessel KV Tromsø trailed the trawler through the disputed zone and into the Russian economic zone of the Barents on Monday. The Norwegians are legally able to use force against the Russian ship in the zone...
At this point I strongly doubt that Nowegians have right to use force in Russian economical zone.

Suppose that Norwegian bordergurds would try to detain someone on Russian side of the border. Whatever 'someone' did the borderguards could be lawfully killed by Russian borderguards. However

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/17/elektron.shtml

The aide to the Russian Navy commander-in-chief, Igor Dygalo, quoted by Echo of Moscow radio said the Navy would not interfere in the situation although it obtained the information. “The situation should be solved through diplomatic channels only, the vessel’s owner is aware of the situation. Everything must be settled within the frameworks of the international law,” Dygalo said.
According to international law Norwegians have only one option: ask Russian authorities to detain and check the trawler.

Now imagine for a second that reaction of Russian navy would not be so calm.
 
#2
It would certainly put article five to the test.
 
#3
'Now imagine for a second that reaction of Russian navy would not be so calm'
Sergey.
Imagine for a second a Russian trawler actually fishing!
And also Russia not playing the bullyboy against Norway for a change!
'Suppose that Norwegian borderguards would try to detain someone on Russian side of the border. Whatever 'someone' did the borderguards could be lawfully killed by Russian borderguards.'
Sergey
Or you could simply shoot down one of their airliners,that usually does the trick.
Russia whining about Norway picking on them does'nt really cut it.
 
#4
Hat20 said:
Or you could simply shoot down one of their airliners,that usually does the trick.
was that a trick the Russians learnt from the Americans or did the Ruskies do it first and the septics copied them?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#5
I thought it was the North Koreans who pioneered that particular form of aviation navigational error correction!
 
#6
Biscuits_Brown said:
It would certainly put article five to the test.
Sergey, in case you missed the subtle point Biscuits is making, Norway is a member of NATO. Article V refers to the collective defence agreement inherent to the North Atlantic Treaty.

In simple terms you'd be taking on:
Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Czech Rep, Denmark, Estonia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States (and perhaps the France, if they feel like it.) It's rather odd that all your "old friends" from the Cold War have swapped side, don't you think? After all the good things the Soviet Union brought them- how ungrateful!

Fortunately you country's leadership has rather more sense than you evidently do. Even short of war, just an economic embargo will leave Russia absolutely fcuked. We can buy our gas and coal elsewhere for a while if need be. We can offset the cost with what we'll save on foreign aid once we cut that off too. It'd be better for all concerned if Russia accepts that the waters in question ARE DISPUTED and try and hammer out a legal resolution to the argument rather than strut around like it's in a position to do something about it by any other means.
 
#7
Hat20 said:
Sergey.
Imagine for a second a Russian trawler actually fishing!
Really situation is very complex. There is a treaty between Norway and Russia (actually it was signed by Soviet Union) about Spitsbergen arhipelago. According to it Russia has special rights there. Norway has right to check Russian ships but without any punitive actions. Recently Norway unilaterally declared full rights over the aquatory. So even first arrest of Russian ship contradicted to signed treaty from point of view of Russian government.

As to attempts to detain the trawler in Russian economical zone then it is absolutely unlawful. So reaction of Russian government was wise. Solution was found by diplomatic means, without demonstration of power. Now (very small) Russian coast guard ship goes toward the trawler (surrounded by 4 Norwegian ships) to excort it to Murmansk. I doubt that our Norwegian friends would shoot it.

Morale: problems among friends should be resolved without demostration of power, but in friendly atmosphere according to laws and signed treaties.

And also Russia not playing the bullyboy against Norway for a change!
No of course.

Sergey
Or you could simply shoot down one of their airliners,that usually does the trick.
Russia whining about Norway picking on them does'nt really cut it.
Probably you mean Korean airliner that was shot down more than 20 years ago.

http://www.rescue007.org/

They were times of Cold war. It is over now.
 
#8
crabtastic said:
Biscuits_Brown said:
It would certainly put article five to the test.
Sergey, in case you missed the subtle point Biscuits is making, Norway is a member of NATO. Article V refers to the collective defence agreement inherent to the North Atlantic Treaty.
I accept that sometimes I look silly but not at this degree. I would understand a phrase 'It would certainly put article anynumber to the test' in the right way of course.

It's rather odd that all your "old friends" from the Cold War have swapped side, don't you think? After all the good things the Soviet Union brought them- how ungrateful!
Be sure these "friends" would be ungrateful toward Western Europe too.

Fortunately you country's leadership has rather more sense than you evidently do.
Taking into account that Russian 'leadership' (to begin with Putin) is a gang of semi-fools, morons and dullards, you obviously estimate my mental abilities very low.

Even short of war, just an economic embargo will leave Russia absolutely fcuked.
I rather disagree with you. Our Chinese, Indian friends would buy Russian oil anyway. And if it would be cheaper on 1 cent than on market, then they would be happy.

As to EU then imaginary 'embargo' would not be a tragedy too but shares would fall sharply no doubt and you would be surprised by new prices on petrol stations soon.

We can buy our gas and coal elsewhere for a while if need be.
In this case gas would be golden. Some countries in EU depends on Russian gas on 90%.

It'd be better for all concerned if Russia accepts that the waters in question ARE DISPUTED and try and hammer out a legal resolution to the argument rather than strut around like it's in a position to do something about it by any other means.
Say it to our Norwegian friends. Namely they try to establish their vision by force (more right by imitation of force). Russian position is reasonable.
 
#9
I accept that sometimes I look silly but not at this degree. I would understand a phrase 'It would certainly put article anynumber to the test' in the right way of course.
Sorry if I came across as Patronizing. It is clear from your initial statement however, that you'd completely forgotten about NATO.

Be sure these "friends" would be ungrateful toward Western Europe too.
Huh? They asked to join us. The closest the Warsaw Pact countries came to consenting to the situation was through the Vito Corleone approach to diplomacy.


Taking into account that Russian 'leadership' (to begin with Putin) is a gang of semi-fools, morons and dullards, you obviously estimate my mental abilities very low.
Hard to tell. While your English is infinitely better than my Russian there are some statements you make that, I hope for your sake, get lost in translation.

I rather disagree with you. Our Chinese, Indian friends would buy Russian oil anyway. And if it would be cheaper on 1 cent than on market, then they would be happy.
When exactly did the Chinese become your "friends"? A marriage of convenience, nothing more. Just look into the foeign assistance, trade credits, CTR etc. that Russia receives. You can bet your arrse that China won't offer up that sort of cash.

As to EU then imaginary 'embargo' would not be a tragedy too but shares would fall sharply no doubt and you would be surprised by new prices on petrol stations soon.
Firing upon a NATO vessel would be an act of war. The North Atlantic Alliance would respond, not necessarily the just the EU.


In this case gas would be golden. Some countries in EU depends on Russian gas on 90%.
Not sure about that precise percentage. Certainly, there are some countries that are very big customers. In the short term at least, Russia does not have a monopoly .


Say it to our Norwegian friends. Namely they try to establish their vision by force (more right by imitation of force). Russian position is reasonable.
You make it sound like they're still running around with horned helmets and battle axes!

This whole debate is academic in any case. Neither Norway or Russia want a scrap over this. No-one is dumb enough to start shooting over fishing boats. (Oh, err,umm, hang on a sec, stand-by one :oops: .)
 
#10
You make it sound like they're still running around with horned helmets and battle axe-crabtastic.
Visions of Olaf the Gangbanger and crew in longboats rowing into Murmansk!
Hey Sergey referring to your Leaders as a gang of semi-fools 20yrs ago would have had got you a trip to Siberia would it not or worse?
 
#11
crabtastic said:
It is clear from your initial statement however, that you'd completely forgotten about NATO.
Not at all. But if NATO ship would attack Russian ship in Russian waters using gun-fire then NATO ship would be attacked too (with predictable result). In this case it would be not an agression against NATO's member but a selfdefence.

So what was a reason for 4(!) Norwegian naval ships to surround Russian trawler in Russian waters? Have you any version?

Huh? They asked to join us
...and waited for golden rein from the West. As I understand clouds are not ready for it.

Firing upon a NATO vessel would be an act of war. The North Atlantic Alliance would respond, not necessarily the just the EU.
In some situations it would not be an act of war. And it should be not only 'an act of war' but aggression. As I remember several NATO vessels were firing (and even been sank) in 1982 without any reaction from NATO.

Not sure about that precise percentage. Certainly, there are some countries that are very big customers. In the short term at least, Russia does not have a monopoly.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4225736.stm

Germany and Russia have signed a pipeline agreement on Thursday that will bypass the current energy network and transport gas under the Baltic Sea.
but even now, without this pipeline

Russia is one of Western Europe's biggest suppliers of commodities and supplies a quarter of the region's gas needs. With limited natural resources of its own, Germany's dependency is even greater and Europe's biggest economy relies on Russia for a third of all its oil and gas imports.
This whole debate is academic in any case. Neither Norway or Russia want a scrap over this. No-one is dumb enough to start shooting over fishing boats.
Of course.
 
#12
Can anyone say cod war ? we tried one of those with the icelandics it all ended rather badly for us best settle it ove a glass of vodka .


Second thoughts make that tea Drunken scandnavians are not a good idea :lol:
 
#13
Still best not to upset the Russian fleet though eh?

Especially if you're a fisherman, lets not forget the Imperial Russian navy's robust reponse to a blatant act of fishing by the Hull trawler fleet in 1904
 
#14
in late 70's and early 80's, Canadian Navy regularly arrested Soviet trawlers and dragged them into Halifax. shots were fired.

now the Canucks did this in the knowledge that:

a. International law on their side
b. so were the yanks!

norgies probably don't give a flying kipper about the Russian response.
 
#15
FYI, UK BBC Radio 2, 1500

A Russian Trawler has just kidnapped 2 Norwegian sailors

........ and is hot footing it back to Russia

.........with 4 Norwegian Frigates and the Norwegian Airforce in tow!!!!!
 
#16
Sergey, as far as i know, the rusky authorities have to told the norwegian coastguard to 'fill their boots'

And also told the dodgy trawler captain not to bother coming home!

Looks like hes fooked then! :D
 
#17
moving-target-survivor said:
FYI, UK BBC Radio 2, 1500

A Russian Trawler has just kidnapped 2 Norwegian sailors

........ and is hot footing it back to Russia

.........with 4 Norwegian Frigates and the Norwegian Airforce in tow!!!!!
Don't worry.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20051018/41814070.html

Commanders of Northern Norway's Armed Forces and the Border Department of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) reached an agreement to this effect on Tuesday afternoon.
Also

http://en.rian.ru/world/20051018/41813450.html

Russia's large anti-submarine ship, the Admiral Levchenko, has departed from the city of Severomorsk for the Barents Sea to prevent the unauthorized entry of foreign ships to Russia's territorial waters.
...
"The Navy is not interfering in the situation with the Elektron trawler," Captain 1st Class Igor Dygalo said.
...
"The relevant Russian authorities will certainly investigate the situation," Lavrov said, adding that Russia believed experts from both countries should hold consultations on the fishing regime around the Spitsbergen archipelago.

The minister said the incident had occurred in an area that Norway had declared a fishing-free zone. "We have never agreed with the norms that Norwegians had unilaterally established in the area. We were in talks over these issues," he said.

Russia and Norway agreed in Soviet times that any problems in the area had to be resolved through requests and inquiries. "This was the case until recently," Lavrov said.
 
#19
That would be the the Baltic Fleet I was thinking of AndyP, imagine their surprise that the Japanese had managed to get 40 junks round to Dogger Bank ready for them to emerge into the North Sea!
 

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