Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by KGB_resident, Aug 12, 2007.
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Great - with such an effective system does that mean he'll finally give the Finns their land back?
I don't think that mr.Putins regards the land as their. Moreover according to Helsinki act 1975 they also agree with it.
Wouldn't it be better ploughing money in to something more usefull?
Like health or other parts of the country that have felt the touch of Communism?
Likewise, who does this protect against? It is a white elephant.
So it doesn't work then?
Of course Russian intellect is not so sophisticated to sell helicopters that appeared useless in the UK.
There exists an old saying. A people that refuses to feed own army will feed foreign one.
Are they going to stop whinging about the Yanks' system now then?
Like they had a choice in 1975! and it was on just this principle that the USSR was kicked out of the League of Nations in 1939.
But seeing the land was "transferred" to the Soviet Union for the security of Petrograd and that security is now provided by the new Radar (and the Soviet Union no longer exists) then the rationale has been undermined. Further, in 1994 Pres Yeltsin commented that "seizure of Finnish Karelia" was an example of Stalin's totalitarian and aggressive politics.
Still with Putin in charge its plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
As a pre-note I would like to ask you PAXBloke where is "historically right" border between USA and Mexico? Or between Germany and Poland? Or between England and Ireland?
Finland emerged as an independent state only in 1918. Until this date the Finns hadn't own statehood. Borders of Great principality Finland in Russian empire were merely administarive ones.
Current Russo-Finnish border is about to coinside with a border between Sweden and Russia that was agreed 300 years ago. So the lands in question belonged to Russia more than 200 years before Finnish independence.
Just after Russian revolution in 1917 Finnish nationalist using the fact that Russia was weak managed to extent their control over as big territory as possible. and during WW2 they tried to annex Karelia that belonged to Russia for centuries.
They are very complicated historical processes and each side has own point. Fortunately 1975 Helsinki act resolved all problems with borders and we should look into the future.
Surprise, surprise - when you can't argue the facts attack through other cases where you think there may be equal injustice. First recourse of the challenged?
Small point but there is no land border between England and Ireland and hasn't been for many millennium - look at a map and you'll see a big wobbly bit of blue between the two countries. The sea border hasn't been an issue either - its not called the United Kingdom for nothing - each is/was a seperate country united in union (hence the Act of Union thingy - it wasn't just a catchy name). Weak attempt to switch the argument there.
Finland has never been part of Russia or the Soviet Union it was a Grand Duchy, formed in 1581 by the Swedish Crown and part of the Tzars personnel property from 1721. So there was no administrative boundary I suggest that it was misleading of you to say otherwise.
The current border was not agreed by the Finns three hundred years ago but between the King of Sweden and Tzar Peter the Great Tzar Alexander then transferred Viipuri and Karelia to the Grand Duchy of Finland voluntarily in 1812. Those areas were therefore once part of Russia but acknowledged by Tzar Alexander to be a natural part of Finland.
The Isthmus, Lake Ladoga and Petsamo were part of Finland as per the Treaty of Dorpat (Tartu) 1922, signed by Stalin when a lowly commissar. Was the Soviet Union really held hostage by five million Finns to make that treaty?
The Soviet Union invaded Finland and seized those territories by force in 1939 for which it was expelled from the League of Nations during the so-called Winter War. During the Continuation War the Finns then re-captured those territories but did not choose to cooperate with the Axis Powers in further offensive operation against the USSR.
Any of this sound familiar or do you only chose to present those parts of the story to this forum that support your agenda. How can you look to a future built on a refusal to acknowledge the past. A past under which Finland has had to bow to Russian and then Soviet power (including as late as 1975) but not any more thank goodness.
Indeed these things are complex and each side has its own point yours seems to be Might is Right!
Let's face it , the Americans talk of setting up missile "defence" systems on the Russian border is it any wonder the Russians retaliate. I know we all have a sort of latent distrust of the Russians left over from the Cold war era but were we in their position I'm sure we'd be doing the same thing. Like most posters on here I tend to be suspicious of Russia's intentions but on reflection I can see why they'd be doing this.
Erm....there isnt one.
Edited to add, I should have read the whole thread!
Let the Russians spend their money on this stuff. I think they're just upset about how the world has forgotten how *tough* they are.
Their citizens are used to standing in bread lines. I wonder if Nashi will get preference in the line or just push people out of the way.
Russia sure loves it's thugs.
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