Russia tried Its Best To Help Saddam

#1
Like a good lawyer trying to save his client, Russia did everything they could to save Saddam from himself but to no avail. When your client is willing to go to war to avoid admitting that he no longer had WMD is that the act of a sane ruler ? So Saddam fooled everyone, even his own generals. In the end though the unthinkable happened, US and UK tanks rumbled into Basra and Baghdad. Had Saddam just fessed up he would still be killing his own citizens and we would have avoided the very high cost in blood and treasure. Had the Russians and France not obstructed US efforts in the UN we wouldnt be in Iraq today.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189050,00.html

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060...dam-s-delusions-the-view-from-the-inside.html
 
#2
tomahawk6 said:
Like a good lawyer trying to save his client, Russia did everything they could to save Saddam from himself but to no avail. When your client is willing to go to war to avoid admitting that he no longer had WMD is that the act of a sane ruler ? So Saddam fooled everyone, even his own generals. In the end though the unthinkable happened, US and UK tanks rumbled into Basra and Baghdad. Had Saddam just fessed up he would still be killing his own citizens and we would have avoided the very high cost in blood and treasure. Had the Russians and France not obstructed US efforts in the UN we wouldnt be in Iraq today.
Really?

If Russia, France and China approved war against Iraq then you would be there anyway.

As to this story, then I have some questions. Why does it emerge only 3 years after a start of the war? How reliable are mentioned 'documents'? Could they be forged?
 
#3
I think George would have found some reason to go in anyway but - the actions of Russian and French politicians who were enjoying the benefits of the sanctions system did not help.
 
#4
tomahawk6 said:
Like a good lawyer trying to save his client, Russia did everything they could to save Saddam from himself but to no avail. When your client is willing to go to war to avoid admitting that he no longer had WMD is that the act of a sane ruler ? So Saddam fooled everyone, even his own generals. In the end though the unthinkable happened, US and UK tanks rumbled into Basra and Baghdad. Had Saddam just fessed up he would still be killing his own citizens and we would have avoided the very high cost in blood and treasure. Had the Russians and France not obstructed US efforts in the UN we wouldnt be in Iraq today.
Rather simplistic even for a yank! :D

W was so determined to see his abrams rolling into Baghdad, the fact that saddam did not have WMD's (or admitted that) would not likely have stopped him!
 
#6
Is it me or is the misleading information fed to the Iraqi's by the Ruskies not playing into our hands.
They might have been spying but surely this "convenient" aberration indicates thta we were aware and used them to our advantage.
 
#7
I thought i would post a source other than fox.



http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1734490&page=1 summaries

Editor's Note: The Russian ambassador in March 2003 was Vladimir Teterenko. Teterenko appears in documents released by the Volker Commission, which investigated the Oil for Food scandal, as receiving allocations of 3 million barrels of oil — worth roughly $1.5 million. )

http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/

full doc

The Russian Doc are hand written maybe their are samples of his handwriting that can be verified as his and compared to the original
 
#9
W.Anchor said:
Russia had huge contracts for military weapons from Saddam, and they did not want to lose these contracts
There were sanctions against Iraq. Arms sales were forbidden. No contracts signed with any country including Russia.

Taz_786 said:
Russia is the only country blocking a tough UN resolution against Iran...coincidence?
It is not a coincidence though Russia is not alone. China is blocking it as well.

Such a resolution contradicts Russian (and Chinese) interests. I hope you agree that it would be strange to act agaist own interests.
 
#11
tomahawk6 said:
http://blogs.pajamasmedia.com/iraq_files/2006/03/document_cmpc2003001950.php
Tomahawk!

Number of tanks: 480
Number of armored cars: 1132
Number of artillery: 296
Number of Apache helicopters : 735
Number of fighter planes: 871
Number of Navy ships: 106. 68 in the Gulf and the rest in Oman (State of Oman), Aden (Yemen), the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.
Number of air carriers: 5. One nuclear powered. Three in the Gulf one in the Mediterranean and one on its way.
Number of Cruise missiles: 583 based on the US Navy and distributed on 22 ships.
Number of Cruise missiles on planes: 64
Number of heavy bombers B-52 H: 10 in the Indian Ocean.
Number of B1-B: 8 present in the US base of Thumarid in Oman.
My uncle is a former colonel of GRU. In 60's and 70's he worked with satelite's images. Even that time it was not a hard task to establish these data without any source in central Command. And agree that this list with impessive numbers of weapons was absolutely useless for Saddam. He was doomed with or without exact knowledge about these numbers.

Evgeniy Primakov, a diplomat, academician, former head of service of external intelligence, former prime minister recalled (on TV) his meetings with Saddam. Mr.Primakov urged him just before the war to resign from his post. Mr.Primakov probably said about huge American military machine on Iraqi borders. It is possible that these numbers were used as an argument that the situation was too serious. Saddam hadn't answered and we know what happened.

Suppose that Primakov's mission would be successfull. Somebody (Tariq Aziz for example) would be a president. Suppose that he makes this proposition:
1. Iraqi army is in barraks.
2. Coalition forces are allowed to enter Iraq peacefully.
3. 1 year for the search the WMD for the coalition and go home.

What would be a possible American answer?
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#12
W.Anchor said:
Russia had huge contracts for military weapons from Saddam, and they did not want to lose these contracts
Dead on.......but they also had huge quite legitimate bills on Saddam's regime for supplying simple unemotive gas to Iraq....so they were (shock ,horror, GASP !) looking out for their own interests in trying to ensure that there was no change of regime until those bills were paid ( which I suspect now never will be)

LOOKING AFTER NATIONAL INTERESTS IS WHAT GOVERNMENTS DO......pretty much without exception.....and, dammit, if your ISN'T maybe you should ask them WHY NOT !

I was going to start a new thread for this topic but I guess this is as good a place as any....

An Iraqi blogger has been nominated for the non-fiction prize in this year's BBC4 Samuel Johnson literary prize ...I went and looked at her blog and I thought this would give another perspective. Source is here:

Three Years...

It has been three years since the beginning of the war that marked the end of Iraq’s independence. Three years of occupation and bloodshed.

Spring should be about renewal and rebirth. For Iraqis, spring has been about reliving painful memories and preparing for future disasters. In many ways, this year is like 2003 prior to the war when we were stocking up on fuel, water, food and first aid supplies and medications. We're doing it again this year but now we don't discuss what we're stocking up for. Bombs and B-52's are so much easier to face than other possibilities.

I don’t think anyone imagined three years ago that things could be quite this bad today. The last few weeks have been ridden with tension. I’m so tired of it all- we’re all tired.

Three years and the electricity is worse than ever. The security situation has gone from bad to worse. The country feels like it’s on the brink of chaos once more- but a pre-planned, pre-fabricated chaos being led by religious militias and zealots.

School, college and work have been on again, off again affairs. It seems for every two days of work/school, there are five days of sitting at home waiting for the situation to improve. Right now college and school are on hold because the “arba3eeniya” or the “40th Day” is coming up- more black and green flags, mobs of men in black and latmiyas. We were told the children should try going back to school next Wednesday. I say “try” because prior to the much-awaited parliamentary meeting a couple of days ago, schools were out. After the Samarra mosque bombing, schools were out. The children have been at home this year more than they’ve been in school.

I’m especially worried about the Arba3eeniya this year. I’m worried we’ll see more of what happened to the Askari mosque in Samarra. Most Iraqis seem to agree that the whole thing was set up by those who had most to gain by driving Iraqis apart.

I’m sitting here trying to think what makes this year, 2006, so much worse than 2005 or 2004. It’s not the outward differences- things such as electricity, water, dilapidated buildings, broken streets and ugly concrete security walls. Those things are disturbing, but they are fixable. Iraqis have proved again and again that countries can be rebuilt. No- it’s not the obvious that fills us with foreboding.

The real fear is the mentality of so many people lately- the rift that seems to have worked it’s way through the very heart of the country, dividing people. It’s disheartening to talk to acquaintances- sophisticated, civilized people- and hear how Sunnis are like this, and Shia are like that… To watch people pick up their things to move to “Sunni neighborhoods” or “Shia neighborhoods”. How did this happen?

I read constantly analyses mostly written by foreigners or Iraqis who’ve been abroad for decades talking about how there was always a divide between Sunnis and Shia in Iraq (which, ironically, only becomes apparent when you're not actually living amongst Iraqis they claim)… but how under a dictator, nobody saw it or nobody wanted to see it. That is simply not true- if there was a divide, it was between the fanatics on both ends. The extreme Shia and extreme Sunnis. Most people simply didn’t go around making friends or socializing with neighbors based on their sect. People didn't care- you could ask that question, but everyone would look at you like you were silly and rude.

I remember as a child, during a visit, I was playing outside with one of the neighbors children. Amal was exactly my age- we were even born in the same month, only three days apart. We were laughing at a silly joke and suddenly she turned and asked coyly, “Are you Sanafir or Shanakil?” I stood there, puzzled. ‘Sanafir’ is the Arabic word for “Smurfs” and ‘Shanakil” is the Arabic word for “Snorks”. I didn’t understand why she was asking me if I was a Smurf or a Snork. Apparently, it was an indirect way to ask whether I was Sunni (Sanafir) or Shia (Shanakil).

“What???” I asked, half smiling. She laughed and asked me whether I prayed with my hands to my sides or folded against my stomach. I shrugged, not very interested and a little bit ashamed to admit that I still didn’t really know how to pray properly, at the tender age of 10.

Later that evening, I sat at my aunt’s house and remember to ask my mother whether we were Smurfs or Snorks. She gave me the same blank look I had given Amal. “Mama- do we pray like THIS or like THIS?!” I got up and did both prayer positions. My mother’s eyes cleared and she shook her head and rolled her eyes at my aunt, “Why are you asking? Who wants to know?” I explained how Amal, our Shanakil neighbor, had asked me earlier that day. “Well tell Amal we’re not Shanakil and we’re not Sanafir- we’re Muslims- there’s no difference.”

It was years later before I learned that half the family were Sanafir, and the other half were Shanakil, but nobody cared. We didn’t sit around during family reunions or family dinners and argue Sunni Islam or Shia Islam. The family didn’t care about how this cousin prayed with his hands at his side and that one prayed with her hands folded across her stomach. Many Iraqis of my generation have that attitude. We were brought up to believe that people who discriminated in any way- positively or negatively- based on sect or ethnicity were backward, uneducated and uncivilized.

The thing most worrisome about the situation now, is that discrimination based on sect has become so commonplace. For the average educated Iraqi in Baghdad, there is still scorn for all the Sunni/Shia talk. Sadly though, people are being pushed into claiming to be this or that because political parties are promoting it with every speech and every newspaper- the whole ‘us’ / ‘them’. We read constantly about how ‘We Sunnis should unite with our Shia brothers…’ or how ‘We Shia should forgive our Sunni brothers…’ (note how us Sunni and Shia sisters don’t really fit into either equation at this point). Politicians and religious figures seem to forget at the end of the day that we’re all simply Iraqis.

And what role are the occupiers playing in all of this? It’s very convenient for them, I believe. It’s all very good if Iraqis are abducting and killing each other- then they can be the neutral foreign party trying to promote peace and understanding between people who, up until the occupation, were very peaceful and understanding.

Three years after the war, and we’ve managed to move backwards in a visible way, and in a not so visible way.

In the last weeks alone, thousands have died in senseless violence and the American and Iraqi army bomb Samarra as I write this. The sad thing isn’t the air raid, which is one of hundreds of air raids we’ve seen in three years- it’s the resignation in the people. They sit in their homes in Samarra because there’s no where to go. Before, we’d get refugees in Baghdad and surrounding areas… Now, Baghdadis themselves are looking for ways out of the city… out of the country. The typical Iraqi dream has become to find some safe haven abroad.Three years later and the nightmares of bombings and of shock and awe have evolved into another sort of nightmare. The difference between now and then was that three years ago, we were still worrying about material things- possessions, houses, cars, electricity, water, fuel… It’s difficult to define what worries us most now. Even the most cynical war critics couldn't imagine the country being this bad three years after the war... Allah yistur min il rab3a (God protect us from the fourth year).
Samuel Johnson prize details here.

T6...Neocon......when will our governments acknowledge that abiding in Iraq once Saddam was toppled has been a tragic and expensive mistake ?


Don Cabra
 

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