Rumsfeld: Worse than McNamara?

#3
LineDoggie said:
Hmmm....

But McNamara had 45,000 US KIA when he left as SecDef, so Dumsfeld has a way to go yet.
If the insurgents had the same firepower as the VietCong did Rumsfeld would in my opinion surpass 42000 if the war lasted as long as Vietnam did.BTW I thought it was 53,209 dead in Vietnam?I could be wrong.

Remember,the insurgents are vastly outgunned,out numbered and outsupplied fighting at least two of the strongest military powers in the world.Hardly the same matchup as Nam.

The US casualities are pretty high.Israels 20 yr occupation of Lebanon only produced about 700 (?) Israeli soldiers dead.We surpassed this number in one year.

Edited to add last paragraph.
 
#5
Yeah but he's been doing Iraq in a half-arsed manner from the beginning so of course his bodycounts going to be half-arsed as well. For comparisons sake, are we just counting US casualties or the current sectarian cluster**** as well?
 
#6
Devil_Dog said:
LineDoggie said:
Hmmm....

But McNamara had 45,000 US KIA when he left as SecDef, so Dumsfeld has a way to go yet.
If the insurgents had the same firepower as the VietCong did Rumsfeld would in my opinion surpass 42000 if the war lasted as long as Vietnam did.BTW I thought it was 53,209 dead in Vietnam?I could be wrong.

Remember,the insurgents are vastly outgunned,out numbered and outsupplied fighting at least two of the strongest military powers in the world.Hardly the same matchup as Nam.

The US casualities are pretty high.Israels 20 yr occupation of Lebanon only produced about 700 (?) Israeli soldiers dead.We surpassed this number in one year.

Edited to add last paragraph.
Not to mention the VC didn't have a habit of blowing up large portions of densely populated residential sections of Saigon like the current "freedom fighters"
 
#8
Rumour has it that even Mrs Bush thought he should go
 
#9
Taz_786 said:
Well to be fair, hes offered to go but Bush wont accept his resignation...
So he is serving reluctantly? More reason he should go.

Rumour has it that even Mrs Bush thought he should go
A woman's intuition is more oftenthan not always right.Everybody including Rummy knows he shouldnt be there.Only Bush has his rose tinted glasses still planted firmly on his nose.
 
#11
Taz_786 said:
It'd be too personally damaging for Bush to get rid of him, especially now.
Aye.They are joined at the hip.Too bad none of them has the balls to do what is right.GW to fire him and/or Rummy to resign.
 
#13
LineDoggie said:
One of the things I always found Jarring was the Physical resemblence they have of each other, like Evil twins.
You are right.They could pass of as brothers.Same lost empty look.

Is Mcnamara still alive?
 
#16
Rummie and McNamara do have common characteristics: two very clever, ruthless and insanely arrogant men. Both treated The Brass like slow witted servants. Both served under wily Texan dissemblers; Johnson being a better liar but perhaps not as brazen or cynical as Bush. As a Hill player Rummie dwarfs the smarter McNamara; that's why he's been able to survive so long only too compound errors that would have got a less fly man fired on the spot. But there just isn't a comparison between their wars.

Vietnam was a long civil war that the Yanks took a serious interest in for only the last third of its duration. Seen in the broader context of the Cold War this war was a distraction that the Yanks retreated from in relatively good order. In it's aftermath they recognized Red China and from that point on the USSR was at a great disadvantage.

Iraq on the other hand is a strategic disaster of the Pentagon's making. It's been a great gift to Sunni Jihad as most experts predicted but only a few thought that its outcome would be a Persian Gulf that's no longer an American dominated lake. The Shi'a Crescent has risen.

A broader regional war is probable as post-partition Iraq implodes and its predatory neighbors rush in to feast on carcass. I'd not make up our butchers bill yet either. Even if we manage to disentangle ourselves in time for the 08 US elections we may find that the door marked exit is a revolving one. As Col. Wilkerson has said the US has vital economic interests in this region and if these are endangered there will be little choice for DC but another massive intervention.
 
#17
In McNamara's defence, one key difference is that he reached a point in 1967 where he realised that he was barking up the wrong tree and has spent the better part of 40 years trying to atone for it. He's authored two pretty decent books, Argument Without End and In Retrospect that have provided some sort of introspective on where he thinks he went wrong and are widely used to teach students of international relations and policy-makers the dangers of hubris.

If you can't be arsed with reading those, try and get your hands on the film, Fog of War. be advised that he's pushing 90 now and does come across a bit like Abe Simpson these days.

A good, precsient book about McNamara and the Pentagon is HR McMasters "Dereliction of Duty". McMaster was CO of 11 ACR during their "vacation" in Tal Afar and OC Eagle Troop, 2 ACR during the Battle of 73 Easting in Desert Storm.
 
#18
Fog of War is well worth watching.

Rummy is in a class of his own! His blunderings have caused a massive strategic failure well beyond anything that the loss of half of Vietnam to a Communist regime who owned the northern bit anyway.
 

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