Royal Marines Gucci Rebrand

Cromarty

Old-Salt
We're not trying to denude the operational experience, we simply want to recruit and use people properly. One of the biggest retention points has been people properly mis-employed. If a job needs a SP and we can evidence that we will, if it's more sensible to be done in another way we'll look at that.
I know it wasn't the intent but it did. The law of unintended consequences. That the powers that be didn't or couldn't forsee it, is on them. That they and subsequent senior officers didn't notice or didn't want to acknowledge it is a sad reflection on our officer corps.

The loss of operational capability is just accepted and papered over. And it's not all war fighting ninja hijinks. Try doing a major seamanship evolution with a bunch of people who haven't had the benefit of proper training from experienced sailors. At best it's embarrassing and upsets the Skipper. Guess you cops the rocket?
 
Utter utter nonsense.
F-4’s vs MiG29’s or SU-27‘S would have diced bravely, but died.
and the Tornado ADV? The same ADV who’s pilots were advised to run away bravely if they thought they‘d run into MiG-29’s in GWI?
 
Lets take this in stages, your employer employs other people to do other jobs so you can do your core role?
Great, so your employer spends money employing those other people?
That's exactly the point. If you want the skilled engineering work done, but also need the toilets cleaned / bins emptied / walls painted / grass mown, you employ different people to do each job, because it's cheaper to have a £15/hour cleaner doing the cleaning, than a £50/hour engineer taking time away from the project.

Both jobs will always need done, so why pay over the odds for one of them?

It begins to look stupid when people don't understand what's actually involved in various tasks - e.g. "how do you meet harmonisation guidelines for skilled engineers, and avoid pissing them off sufficiently that they take the seven clicks to freedom". If you have a plan for that, great. If you haven't, you get a nasty surprise down the line with a skills gap - but it's the fault of the Service concerned, not with contractorisation per se.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
F-4’s vs MiG29’s or SU-27‘S would have diced bravely, but died.
and the Tornado ADV? The same ADV who’s pilots were advised to run away bravely if they thought they‘d run into MiG-29’s in GWI?
This is the extended-range MiG-29 that's flying from bases in East Germany (at best) to UK airspace with a full warload, getting into a proper dogfight, and heading home victorious for vodka and medals?

Yeah, you might want to check that.
 

Polyester

Old-Salt
F-4’s vs MiG29’s or SU-27‘S would have diced bravely, but died.
and the Tornado ADV? The same ADV who’s pilots were advised to run away bravely if they thought they‘d run into MiG-29’s in GWI?
Evidence that statement. I know a lot RAF pilots and I have never heard of any being ordered to run away bravely.

Strangely, I am not the only one on here who thinks that you are talking nonsense. Have you considered why that may be? To me it’s instantly obvious those posters who have even a small amount of experience or knowledge or skills in this area and those who are cutting and pasting from google or some wanky air magazine.

For the avoidance of doubt you are firmly in the latter group.
 

TamH70

MIA
This is the extended-range MiG-29 that's flying from bases in East Germany (at best) to UK airspace with a full warload, getting into a proper dogfight, and heading home victorious for vodka and medals?

Yeah, you might want to check that.
You might want to check out what happened when they tested the Fulcrum's cannon system against air-to-air targets. Faulty software meant that only five-round bursts could be fired before things went tits-up. Made no difference, the targets still got twatted. And that was thirty-odd years ago.
 
They can't. The majority of accomodation and WiFi are contracted out so the army can't do anything with either.
I rather suspect that a civilian firm doesn't give a stuff if the Army is willing to do their work for them, so long as:
  • They still get paid as per contract
  • They don't have to put effort into reworking the ham-handed efforts of enthusiastic Squaddies who aren't as good at DIY as they think they are.
  • They don't now have to put effort into maintaining the plans and documentation of which pieces of kit, and what work has been done, where and when.
  • It doesn't turn out to be the thin end of the Wedge, as it were 8)
The reason the "Army can't do anything" is because, having handed all the maintenance money over to the contractors, there's no budget to nip down to B&Q to pick up a shedload of tools, lightbulbs, Cat-5e, plasterboard, paint, sealant, and Polyfilla (See also "funds to help with recruiting since the Adjutant-General bought himself a Capita Directorship with the Army's entire budget for the next decade or two")

If you were really cynical, you might wonder whether the small businesses who provide the bulk of these essential contractor services are the backbone of the entrepreneurial classes who vote for the Government, and drink with their MP at the golf club. And the bigger businesses are the ones who have MPs on "retainer" for "consultancy". Gosh, I wonder where the votes and pressure for contractorisation might come from? (See also "let's make the NHS more efficient / open it up to competition" - Defence and Health are very large and attractive troughs of cash for the more determined snout to seek "their share".
 
F-4’s vs MiG29’s or SU-27‘S would have diced bravely, but died.
and the Tornado ADV? The same ADV who’s pilots were advised to run away bravely if they thought they‘d run into MiG-29’s in GWI?
I would be astounded if MiG-29s would have had the 'legs' to escort Badgers, Blinders and Backfires out over the Norwegian Sea heading towards Saxa Vord.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
You might want to check out what happened when they tested the Fulcrum's cannon system against air-to-air targets. Faulty software meant that only five-round bursts could be fired before things went tits-up. Made no difference, the targets still got twatted. And that was thirty-odd years ago.
Which is all nice'n'all, but you've got to have enough fuel to get to the fight, and manoeuvre into position for a shot, and still make it home. (The AA-11/helmet sight combo was a lot more dangerous, anyway)

The Fulcrum was (and is) a point-defence fighter, and a bit range-limited: it wasn't going to be coming from behind the Iron Curtain to play in the UKADIZ except as a one-way trip, let alone be bothering Tornado F.3s chasing Backfires north of Scotland.
 
I've listened countless times to people who have done an 18-24m sea draft and then think they should be ashore for the next 3-5 years.
Mwah ha ha ha ha ah ah ahah ah a
 
F-4’s vs MiG29’s or SU-27‘S would have diced bravely, but died.
and the Tornado ADV? The same ADV who’s pilots were advised to run away bravely if they thought they‘d run into MiG-29’s in GWI?
Complete and utter bullshit.
 
That's exactly the point. If you want the skilled engineering work done, but also need the toilets cleaned / bins emptied / walls painted / grass mown, you employ different people to do each job, because it's cheaper to have a £15/hour cleaner doing the cleaning, than a £50/hour engineer taking time away from the project.

Both jobs will always need done, so why pay over the odds for one of them?

It begins to look stupid when people don't understand what's actually involved in various tasks - e.g. "how do you meet harmonisation guidelines for skilled engineers, and avoid pissing them off sufficiently that they take the seven clicks to freedom". If you have a plan for that, great. If you haven't, you get a nasty surprise down the line with a skills gap - but it's the fault of the Service concerned, not with contractorisation per se.
It wasnt me claiming civvies were cheaper, what people mean is it cheaper to hire a civvie to do a job, if you ignore all the other civvies doing other jobs.
I also wasnt suggesting that soldiers should get tasked with bone jobs either, merely that sometimes you have to do something that isnt in you core role, civvies generally wont.
 
15 ******* years of
Typhoon cold war warrior - pointless A2A fighter - wasting a fortune desperately trying to make it relevant and throw money to Bae by truing to make it a bomber when it was from day 1 nothing but a fighter.

Suddenly has become it was only a bomber but somehow , through what can only be a cock up of such epic proportions that they got it so wrong it was right ) they managed to build a ground pounder optimised for high altitude manoeuvring and supersonic agility.
 
F-4’s vs MiG29’s or SU-27‘S would have diced bravely, but died.
and the Tornado ADV? The same ADV who’s pilots were advised to run away bravely if they thought they‘d run into MiG-29’s in GWI?
This will come as an enormous surprise to the F3 mate I know who was sent, by AWACS, to prosecute a suspected Mig-29 contact. It got to Late Arm Live stage before a 'feeling in the water' that something wasn't right made him hesitate about letting a Skyflash go. A few second later, an F-4G travelling at the speed of heat (and with a broken IFF) went haring past him, 1 o'clock low. I forget now whether he called the AWACS and escorted the F-4 home to avoid any more confusion, or whether some USAF assets collected him to avoid a blue-on-blue.

I know that AWACS did, mistakenly, task a pair of Jaguars to pursue a contact, but while the Jag mates were explaining that they weren't exactly air-air platforms, some F-15s looking for trade came onto the net and the Jag mates graciously handed the task over to them, heading home for tea and medals.
 

Polyester

Old-Salt
This will come as an enormous surprise to the F3 mate I know who was sent, by AWACS, to prosecute a suspected Mig-29 contact. It got to Late Arm Live stage before a 'feeling in the water' that something wasn't right made him hesitate about letting a Skyflash go. A few second later, an F-4G travelling at the speed of heat (and with a broken IFF) went haring past him, 1 o'clock low. I forget now whether he called the AWACS and escorted the F-4 home to avoid any more confusion, or whether some USAF assets collected him to avoid a blue-on-blue.

I know that AWACS did, mistakenly, task a pair of Jaguars to pursue a contact, but while the Jag mates were explaining that they weren't exactly air-air platforms, some F-15s looking for trade came onto the net and the Jag mates graciously handed the task over to them, heading home for tea and medals.
I’m sorry Archimedes but I simply cannot accept you coming here and talking facts. Anyone would think that everything you just said was based on some kind of truth. We’ve already been told the truth by PhotEx.

I hope you learned something here.
 

Polyester

Old-Salt
In fact, we had better get in touch with all the QRA pilots and get some pay back from them seeing as they were never really expected to cut the mustard anyway. Fairs fair.
 

arcticfox042

War Hero
Whats all this bollox about jets got to do with Royal getting new pants??
 

Latest Threads

Top