Royal Marines Gucci Rebrand

Truxx

LE
You do an armed stag on the gate as a civvie do you?

I didn't claim civvies were workshy retards although its interesting that you thought that.

My point was you cant make civvies do anything outside of their contract in the Army. Yet balloonheads like Jim30 tout how much cheaper it is to replace Pte Bloggs with Mr Bloggs because you dont have to pay civvies so much or give them subsidised housing. Then when you ask, who will be doing Pte Bloggs duties, tours, exercises, unpaid overtime, jiff jobs, emergency call out etc the answer seems to be everyone else can cover it.
Not many serving stagged on in 2010 when I left, and I suspect even fewer now. Pretty much all MGS, who were essentially civvies.

That said I am minded to agree with the general unease about "civilianisation" or "contractorisation". It looks like a saving, but when the sh1t hits the fan it all turns out quite expensive.

In Baghdad I spent over $12 million on sandbags and concrete shelters (in a 6 month period). I had sand, a couple of thousand shovel capable jundii and could get empty sandbags by the million. I could even turn the effort into a training exercise. But the contract for "defence stores" had been let, so I was debarred from doing that and my only option was to buy the sandbags from KBR, filled at $10 a time. Delivered to the general location not just where the sandbags were needed, I still had to get the jundii to unload them and put them into position, a scale of effort much greater then them filling them in the first place.

There are many other examples from my time. The comparison is straightforward. A soldier (sailor or airman) costs x. A contract individual costs pretty much the same. The difference comes when one organisation needs to add a margin on top for "profit"
 
@Dan Gleebles

So strange you can’t bring yourself to answering what capbadge you wore. Bloater
So strange you've been on arse less than a week, posted 6 times and 2 of those are asking someones background.

If you weren't such a fcuking screamer you'd read back through my posts and join the dots.

Are you sure you're a Royal, you seem a bit insecure?
 
Was this the point where "Replacement Jaguar" had to suddenly double its wing area and engine power, add a multimode radar and BVR missiles, and all those other capabilities that you're claiming Typhoon was never meant to have?

Seriously, drinking Brasso over lunchtime isn't a good idea, but now you're on the Toilet Duck chasers...
which version assorted, there were many, of ‘Eurofighter’ do you want to pick?
the original single engined little more than a GR-91 with bells and whistles concepts from 1972? The glorified Harrier concept? The rip off of the Northrop F-5? The one that looked like an F-18? Or The umpteenth design and requirement iteration after the French ‘it’s got too big‘ had stropped off And stayed with their vision of a very small lightweight ‘Eurofighter’, aka Rafale?
Typhoon as it currently exists bears no resemblance to what was originally sought. And it turned up in service loooooooong after the Cold War had ended.
all stems from - Air Staff Target (AST) 403: replacement of Harrier / Jaguar

early Hawker AST 403 concept.... not exactly an F-15 class air superiority fighter, was it?

2FD83B61-5F6F-4A11-A1EF-7A408768E412.jpeg
 
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which version assorted, there were many, of ‘Eurofighter’ do you want to pick?
the original single engined little more than a GR-91 with bells and whistles concepts from 1972? The glorified Harrier concept? The rip off of the Northrop F-5? The one that looked like an F-18?Or The umpteenth design and requirement iteration after the French ‘it’s got too big‘ had stropped off And stayed with their vision of a very small lightweight ‘Eurofighter’, aka Rafale?
Typhoon as it currently exists bears no resemblance to what was originally sought. And it turned up in service loooooooong after the Cold War had ended.

all stems from - Air Staff Target (AST) 403: replacement of Harrier / Jaguar
Is there anything, anything at all that you're not a fcuking expert in?

No matter the area of discussion, you never listen to the people who are immersed in it, and instead fall back on something you read in your bedroom.
 
What you get with "spare" service personnel not currently smiting HM the Queens enemies, is a disciplined force available at short notice. This may be to reinforce or expand in thier specialty or as a scratch unit with various trades and experience to cover just about any task and live rough while doing it.
but if they're constantly being jiffed to stag on at the gate, area clean, act as duty driver they aren't available at short notice. Unless of course all those jiff jobs aren't necessary & are in fact make-work to keep them occupied because sorting out productive work/training is all to difficult.
 
Is there anything, anything at all that you're not a fcuking expert in?

No matter the area of discussion, you never listen to the people who are immersed in it, and instead fall back on something you read in your bedroom.
I for one really like @PhotEx’s willingness to challenge the site’s orthodoxy. Even if he’s wrong, the replies And ripostes to him are often also illuminating. And he’s clearly widely read.
 
Not many serving stagged on in 2010 when I left, and I suspect even fewer now. Pretty much all MGS, who were essentially civvies.
Still had stagging on in 10 QOGLR, 27 Regt, Grenadier guards, Scots guards and the Royal Irish in 2019, the only camps I remember having MPS or MPGS were Sandhurst, Montgomery house, Pirbright and whatever the barracks where the dental centre is in Aldershot. (All places that tend not to have a pool of trained toms). Also Deepcut but that explained by dead phase two soldiers being bad PR.
Although its is boring for the lads, at least it could be part of their role when they deploy.
 
There are many other examples from my time. The comparison is straightforward. A soldier (sailor or airman) costs x. A contract individual costs pretty much the same. The difference comes when one organisation needs to add a margin on top for "profit"
Another difference is that work outside of normal hours could be offset by extra time off in a slack period for a soldier.
A civvie will want overtime outside of normal working hours in addition to be being paid during a slack period (If hes contracted to be in a location for x amount of time a week).
 
So not an operational airfield then. Bingate sorted.
Not really seeing as I never said **** all about the RAF in the first place.
 

Cromarty

Old-Salt
but if they're constantly being jiffed to stag on at the gate, area clean, act as duty driver they aren't available at short notice. Unless of course all those jiff jobs aren't necessary & are in fact make-work to keep them occupied because sorting out productive work/training is all to difficult.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

One of my not NNA (Naval Ninja Assassin) jobs was as junior staff at the rifle range. It was an excellent job with a WO in charge. I did everything from range and target maintenance, stores - ammo - weapons and personnel transport. I even ran the range for the Army reserve, Police and the Prison guards on weekends (expected extra duties).

When my Ninja skills were required i was available at very short notice. But in between filling short term vacancies, i had a chance to relax and spend time with family and friends. It also gave a chance to do development and promotion courses.

Fast forward a few years and there weren't enough qualified people for the system to cycle through and I couldn't even get released from the ship to get promoted. Guess what happened? Yep, i chucked in the green grenade. This activated the "we need this bloke" retention bribery scheme. I was promised all the courses and promotions i wanted. Sounds great, the only thing being i had to screw over someone else to make it happen. I chose to leave.
 

Bob65

War Hero
Unless of course all those jiff jobs aren't necessary & are in fact make-work to keep them occupied because sorting out productive work/training is all to difficult.
It's not as if there's a shortage of real work. Turn the RE loose on the accom, useful work and and chance to practice their trades. Similarly the Sigs could sort out the wifi.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I for one really like @PhotEx’s willingness to challenge the site’s orthodoxy. Even if he’s wrong, the replies And ripostes to him are often also illuminating. And he’s clearly widely read.
"If you open your mind too much, your brain falls out", as the saying goes. Reading widely only helps if you understand what's on the page...
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
which version assorted, there were many, of ‘Eurofighter’ do you want to pick?
the original single engined little more than a GR-91 with bells and whistles concepts from 1972? The glorified Harrier concept? The rip off of the Northrop F-5? The one that looked like an F-18? Or The umpteenth design and requirement iteration after the French ‘it’s got too big‘ had stropped off And stayed with their vision of a very small lightweight ‘Eurofighter’, aka Rafale?
Typhoon as it currently exists bears no resemblance to what was originally sought. And it turned up in service loooooooong after the Cold War had ended.
all stems from - Air Staff Target (AST) 403: replacement of Harrier / Jaguar

early Hawker AST 403 concept.... not exactly an F-15 class air superiority fighter, was it?

View attachment 486748
The drawing could almost be an AMX. And it’s very pretty.

But requirements change. By the time we moved to Eurofighter, it was very much about a swing-role, very capable airframe (as is the Rafale, incidentally) because that’s what was needed.

But haven’t you in one of your previous incarnations complained that Typhoon’s A2G role was akin to turning a Lamborghini into a dumpster? Whereas the truth is that Typhoon was always going to be swing-role, it was just that people needed the A2A capability in service first? Haven’t you complained that bolting an A2G capability onto Typhoon was a ridiculous waste, compromising a good fighter?

Yet here you are arguing that Typhoon was to be a Jaguar replacement that ‘just happened’ to be a bit good in a knife fight.

You’re talking cock.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
It's not as if there's a shortage of real work. Turn the RE loose on the accom, useful work and and chance to practice their trades. Similarly the Sigs could sort out the wifi.
You’re not suggesting putting to good use all those useful skills a well-rounded army professes to nurture, are you?

What kind of madman are you?!
 
This is the thing I find puzzling. My civvy employer pays me a decent wage to be an engineer. It took several years of education and training before I got to the point where I might be useful, so my employer wants to make use of that. My employer doesn't want me spending my time cleaning the lavvies, or stagging on in reception to answer the door. They want me fixing software; so they pay other people to clean the toilets, empty bins, wash down the kitchen. It works. Yeah, I'll help wash up if there's stuff needing done, or open doors for deliveries, but these are jobs that take a couple of seconds - no problem, glad to help.
  • If the civilian contractors arrive, and it's promptly discovered that the contract doesn't cover stuff like weekend maintenance, whose fault is that? Oh yes, the Army. Not the contractor.
  • If a sensible amount of flexibility wasn't written into a contractorised service (say, late meals / early opening of the Stores), whose fault is that? Oh yes, the Army. Not the contractor.
  • If the troops are suddenly Excused Duties like dixie-diving / stagging on, surely that means they can focus on their primary task - training to Smite Her Majesty's Enemies? Getting into the gym, onto the ranges, even making it down to the Education Centre? Whose fault is it, if they aren't training efficiently enough that there's all that spare time for obsessive-compulsive RD types to insist on area cleaning? Oh yes, the Army. Not the contractor.
For all you rave about the wonderful era of instant flexibility where you could just drag a chef out of their billet / a storesman out of the NAAFI, I'm sure that they were really happy about the ****-About Factor which, let's be honest, often arose because idle b**tards hadn't bothered to plan ahead.

Lets take this in stages, your employer employs other people to do other jobs so you can do your core role?
Great, so your employer spends money employing those other people? Which is odd because I swear someone on here was telling everyone how civvies are cheaper than the military. Also do you think the Army should contract civvies to do escorts for MCTC? or taking soldiers to the nut house? Or doing Court martial duties? Or visit soldiers in hospital? or attend court with a subordinate? Or tell spouses their other half is dead/injured? Or all the other jobs that in civvie street do not apply in the workplace?

I doubt very much any contract is going to have every single minor incident written into it. If it did I would guess it would cost a fortune.
Flexibility costs money. (although I'm told civvies are cheaper) :roll:

Squaddies tend not to do pan bash unless they are on exercise/tour, you probably arent going to get civvie coming out into the field to clean mess tins. As I said earlier, guard does waste alot of time but it would still happen on exercise/tour.
I never mentioned area cleaning.

Guess what? Sometimes shit happens and you get dragged out of your bed, its the joys of being in the Army, I said earlier
Things like Temperer, the Olympics security, fire strike, foot and mouth, Morlop ambulance driving, building nightingale hospitals etc will still need to be covered.

Who is going to do them? Notice that not a single one of those examples is some job the regiment has invented to keep the blokes busy.
 
Another difference is that work outside of normal hours could be offset by extra time off in a slack period for a soldier.
A civvie will want overtime outside of normal working hours in addition to be being paid during a slack period (If hes contracted to be in a location for x amount of time a week).
Unless their contract offers TOIL instead of O/T, or its a ZHC
 
but if they're constantly being jiffed to stag on at the gate, area clean, act as duty driver they aren't available at short notice. Unless of course all those jiff jobs aren't necessary & are in fact make-work to keep them occupied because sorting out productive work/training is all to difficult.
Who said anything about "constantly"? A jiff job (as opposed to a bone job) is something that happens at the last minute. A bone job is make-work.
 
Unless their contract offers TOIL instead of O/T, or its a ZHC
Its amazing all these special contracts that are out there in the military world.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
which version assorted, there were many, of ‘Eurofighter’ do you want to pick?
Mid-1980s, when you declared that "Hawk/Jaguar replacement" was somehow mangled into an air-superiority fighter to stop the RAF buying F-15As.

You know the time, back when the proposals looked like this:-
1593765673283.png


Clearly, nothing like the operational aircraft - you can see how the project had to be transformed.

Remember when this sleek, svelte, agile little beauty was going to be the USAF's new Advanced Tactical Fighter?
1593765868531.png


Funny how projects change from early proposals, to "what actually works", isn't it? Or the way this:-
1593766140605.png


was originally meant to look like this:-
1593766210631.png


Now, go and try to actually read some of your references, rather than just colouring in the pictures.
 

Cromarty

Old-Salt
We even helped out Melbourne Zoo using our rope splicing and rigging skills to string old berthing lines and swings in a monkey enclosure. One of the PO's was an exchange RN fella.
 

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