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Royal Marines Gucci Rebrand

IIRC the C8 is the Canadian made version of "M16" and its ever so nice and definitely NOT cheap --- so the queue forms now as only expensive pieces of kit allowed.

Ah, I expect you work in army procurement.

Unit cost:

C8A3 - £1165
SA80 A3 - £1700

Not including the millions we’ve spent developing and updating the SA80. Which is such a good rifle that no one else on the planet has bought it.
 

Mufulira

War Hero
Ah, I expect you work in army procurement.

Unit cost:

C8A3 - £1165
SA80 A3 - £1700

Not including the millions we’ve spent developing and updating the SA80. Which is such a good rifle that no one else on the planet has bought it.
Incremental price creep! Astounding how much these items have soared.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Ah, I expect you work in army procurement.

Unit cost:

C8A3 - £1165
SA80 A3 - £1700

Not including the millions we’ve spent developing and updating the SA80. Which is such a good rifle that no one else on the planet has bought it.

So, if that's "unit cost", where's the L85A3 production line where we can pay £1700 and get an extra one? Oh, there isn't one - it's the amortized cost over its life (which includes all that "develop and update" money). If you don't understand the figures you're quoting, you only show you don't understand what you're talking about.

And of course the cost for the C8 covers the full price of training, of all the spares and ancillaries required (no, you can't just use an L85 cleaning kit...), changing the racking and storage, all the boring stuff that's chinned off as "easy and cheap" by would-be G3 ninjas who fall for Darryl Huff's "semi-attached figure" (see How To Lie With Statistics) - doesn't it?

Oh, and learn a little history - "nobody bought it" because by the time there was headroom for exports, we were bollocks-deep in the end of the Cold War, everyone was cashing in their peace dividend and downsizing their military, and the US was swamping the market with low-mileage M16s as FMS. Hard to compete with "free"...
 
So, if that's "unit cost", where's the L85A3 production line where we can pay £1700 and get an extra one? Oh, there isn't one - it's the amortized cost over its life (which includes all that "develop and update" money). If you don't understand the figures you're quoting, you only show you don't understand what you're talking about.

And of course the cost for the C8 covers the full price of training, of all the spares and ancillaries required (no, you can't just use an L85 cleaning kit...), changing the racking and storage, all the boring stuff that's chinned off as "easy and cheap" by would-be G3 ninjas who fall for Darryl Huff's "semi-attached figure" (see How To Lie With Statistics) - doesn't it?

Oh, and learn a little history - "nobody bought it" because by the time there was headroom for exports, we were bollocks-deep in the end of the Cold War, everyone was cashing in their peace dividend and downsizing their military, and the US was swamping the market with low-mileage M16s as FMS. Hard to compete with "free"...

I was under the impression that had reopened the Nottingham factory which is where they are conducting/conducted the A3 upgrade.

I dont know/care enough to discover if that £1700 is a true unit cost or an amortised cost. But it’s not really germane to my point that a C8 is cheaper than an SA80.

As to the training cost of conversion, behave, it’s not like it hasn’t been done before with units: SFSG or weapons: minimi, sharpshooter, UGL ad infinitum.
 
Ah, the old "we've always done it this way" ripost.

The MPGS will want paying, yes... but it means that Pte Bloggs can do what he's paid to do.

Where did I say we have always done it this way?

Indeed Pte Bloggs can get on with his job, it will just cost more money to employ MPGS along with any other jobs Pte Bloggs might get spammed with.
 
What you are doing, I think, is conflating contracting out a service to another provider with directly employing someone into your organisation.

If you contract out your waste management to an external firm they will quote for the specification in that contract. Any extra work will be done at additional cost.

If you directly employ someone into a role you write the job spec. Which means they can do whatever they want. You can even include a line about completing any other tasks which are reasonably asked of you. This is exactly the same as joining the army, you sign a contract and agree to the terms. This allows you to employ someone for less money who can fulfill any task you like.

Things get done in civvy street. The litter is picked up, potholes are filled in, last minute jobs that come up get done, people complete tasks which they are not directly contracted to do. The world goes on.

Some army roles do not need a soldier to complete them.

Im fully aware of "any other taskings" it is not reasonable to to tell one of your office workers to pick up litter/bins.
Its says any other taskings in my job description, do you think Im going to be picking up bins or some jiff job because my boss says so?
Im in civvy street, we pay money for other people to pick up litter and other last minute jobs.

Quite a lot of Army roles dont need a soldier to complete them, but if you want a deployable versatile employee you generally need a soldier. Because a civvy wont do it without a stack of cash.
 
Untill they all sign off cos it ****...

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I think they are far more likely to sign off because they are getting hammered with tours and exercises, but apparently thats what they joined up for, so tough shit for them.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I dont know/care enough to discover if that £1700 is a true unit cost or an amortised cost. But it’s not really germane to my point that a C8 is cheaper than an SA80.

Yes, it is, and the fact that you "don't know/care" demonstrates that you're basically reciting nonsense.

It may well be true that the C8 is cheaper - but it's by no means guaranteed, particularly once you cost matters properly rather than dismissing all the details you don't like.

Bringing in new weapons is hardly rocket science but it isn't free and pretending it is, results in problems downstream (especially when the main Business Case seems to be "want one of those! shiny!")
 
See my other recent post(s).

That was what the TA used to be for: with some honourable exceptions, providing lots of infantry very quickly.

Two things have happened. One is that even the 'humble' infantryman has become rather more expensive to equip these days (it's not boots, denims, hairy shirt, woolly pully and helmet, rifle, water bottle and large pack). The other is that the TA as was no longer exists. We now have the Army Reserve and FTRS, which too regularly have to infill what used to be Regular Army posts because, fundamentally, we do not have enough people.

The TA used to be our last resort, in the sense that by the time you were using it you were on your uppers. Now, we habitually use reservists.

The old model isn't just broken, it is gone. Also, you need to consider the speed of modern conflict. In WWII, infantry training was about 12 weeks to begin with, falling to about six weeks for battle casualty replacements later.

We don't have the luxury of time and we don't have the industrial capacity to equip those people.

How would you train these new soldiers, much less equip them?

Also, size: the Regular Army at the beginning of WWII was three times the size of what we have now, plus there was that expandable reserve.

We're thin.

But your assumptions about budgets are also wrong. The Army was doing very well whilst Iraq and Afghanistan were going on, as those were the priorities at the time. It's not the case that the RN and RAF do better. In fact, for many years a problem was that the cut was a third each no matter what.
You don’t have to convince me, I’d gladly pay another 2p in the pound in tax to have troop levels somewhere near the height of the Cold War with Modern equipment to match.
I hate the fact that we can barely scratch together enough vessels to escort HMS Queen Elizabeth out of dry dock, let alone protect Her on operations. I despair when I see RAF Squadrons disbanding and aircraft mothballed or sat in hangers with no parts or pilots. This Country is very good at pulling our trousers down in the open and standing there waiting to get rogered.
 
Yes, it is, and the fact that you "don't know/care" demonstrates that you're basically reciting nonsense.

It may well be true that the C8 is cheaper - but it's by no means guaranteed, particularly once you cost matters properly rather than dismissing all the details you don't like.

Bringing in new weapons is hardly rocket science but it isn't free and pretending it is, results in problems downstream (especially when the main Business Case seems to be "want one of those! shiny!")
Christ we are arguing with Call if Duty Ninja’s, who like the firearm there ”hero” has, not on operational deployments. The USMC who we deployed alongside rather liked the L85a2, as it had a much longer barrel, weight yes weight.
Weight helps with accuracy, hence the chin off of the SCARH by every western tier one.
 
Christ we are arguing with Call if Duty Ninja’s, who like the firearm there ”hero” has, not on operational deployments. The USMC who we deployed alongside rather liked the L85a2, as it had a much longer barrel, weight yes weight.
Weight helps with accuracy, hence the chin off of the SCARH by every western tier one.

Are Royal making a mistake by binning L85?
 
When I see articles like that ( most on the site, and that of the Wavell Room ) I really do despair.

All characterised by reliance on jargon, superfluous footnoting, seemingly endless sentences and precious little self-awareness or clarity of thought.

The sites are intended to parade the idea that the forces, far from being officered by the likes of General Melchett and Lieutenant George, are actually vibrant intellectual communities.

Unfortunately, they come across as the equivalent of an A Level student cramming at the last minute to meet an essay submission deadline, or bum-snorkling SO3s in a hurry to impress their 2RO.

Suffice to say, the link isn't evidence that the RM moves are actually evidence of a well-thought out plan rather than short term politicking.

Puzzle Palace - hmmmm....

Sometimes it is suspiciously well informed, at others it seems to be the counter-FCF insurgency.

Although before being hyper-critical, it does at least try and get JNCO buy in and writing.
 
Im fully aware of "any other taskings" it is not reasonable to to tell one of your office workers to pick up litter/bins.
Its says any other taskings in my job description, do you think Im going to be picking up bins or some jiff job because my boss says so?
Im in civvy street, we pay money for other people to pick up litter and other last minute jobs.

Quite a lot of Army roles dont need a soldier to complete them, but if you want a deployable versatile employee you generally need a soldier. Because a civvy wont do it without a stack of cash.
That’s all I’m saying really, if you need a soldier have a soldier. If you don’t need a soldier just employ a non operational individual for less money.

Also I’m not saying that an office worker will do areas. But it’s reasonable to ask someone to empty the bin in their office. It’s not reasonable to ask a hospital porter to carry out heart surgery.

Prime example MPGS. Non deployable who fulfill a set task. Taking the burden off soldiers who gain nothing from stagging on.
 
Sorry to get on thread. Will Crye Precision supply the Corp with their little black party/cocktail dress which seems to be an essential part of their historical uniform?

Also will Naked Roll Mat fighting still be taught at CTMC as an integral part of a Royal Marines training in the 'Future Commando Force'?

Apoligies if these essential questions have already been answered.
 
Sorry to get on thread. Will Crye Precision supply the Corp with their little black party/cocktail dress which seems to be an essential part of their historical uniform?

Also will Naked Roll Mat fighting still be taught at CTMC as an integral part of a Royal Marines training in the 'Future Commando Force'?

Apoligies if these essential questions have already been answered.
1. Doubtful
2. More than likely

Sent from my SM-T515 using Tapatalk
 
Well, I'm sure they've considered the options without allowing COD heroes to influence them.
It’s been widely reported that the RM wanted a different rifle, again main driver is types of round fired, I would not be surprised if in 6 months the announce the M27 will be adopted.
 
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