Royal Marines Gucci Rebrand

Alright then......how many Air To Air Combat Victories have the cripplingly expensive F-22 Raptor and Typhoon racked up in their 10+ years of service?

The money spent on Typhoon would have gone a long way on equipment that the Army could use.
The army can’t exist without air superiority, simples!

How many troops, SF, allied nations have had their lives saved by the CAS of the F22 and Typhoon? Answer me that?
 
D

Deleted 3147

Guest
I vented by giving you these examples?

If you have 600 bods of various ranks and you replace 10% with civilians, generally the duties, exercises, tour commitments, fastballs (and yes jiff jobs, if the bins have blown over in a storm you can send pte bloggs to tidy it up, Mr bloggs will tell you to **** off) and all the other bollocks has to be covered by the remaining 540
As well as my comment above about soldiers having to have more of the burden.
Lets start when I was a tom, they closed 16 regt (The large garrisons) down because it was cheaper to hire civvies, who when working weekend get around 18 quid a hour (I know this because I have a relative working there). Send a civvie on a course? They wont be putting up with a multiple room with strangers they want a Hotel room. Hand over the armoury to civilians? They have exact hours and if you want them outside those hours, you best be paying overtime, they dont care if a landy has broken down and you will be late, its not part of their contract. QM department (All civvies except the QM and RQ) needed to set and take down an event on the weekend? Are you paying? Best get some soldiers from elsewhere to do it then. Etc etc.

What you mean is in the Navy you have replaced military with some cushy jobs with civilians. Ive given you numerous examples of what happens.
Any bellend can say Pte Bloggs in the QMs/Orderly room/Post bunk/Gym costs X amount but a civvie will be 10 grand cheaper. That same bellend can write a contract to ensure that the civvie does the core role of the soldier. It all falls on its arse when you want something outside of the contract. Clearly in your wonderful world, nothing additional ever comes up. Everyone goes to work at 8 leaves at 16.30 having never left their office. In the real and not made up world, shit happens all the time, never mind though you can just tell the pondlife "Thats what they joined up for".
You dont make up jiff jobs, they just happen, the bins have blown over, a large table needs moving for A to B, a tree has fallen the fence line and needs a guard until it can be secured, Op Morlop gets called, Op Temperer gets called, duty driver is on detail but we need to someone to drop off/pick up someone/something. All these things (and more) happen in the Army, not in your part of the military though it must be perfect there.
Again you've not evidenced jack all.

Im fairly certain that nearly every civvie replacement in the Army has led to more work for those serving and/or more cost to the military and/or less of a service

So show where and how because that's a pretty big assertion you've made, and what you've written doesn't come close to backing it up.

We've replaced a range of military posts from WO1 to SO1 with Civilians in my area alone around 24, across the wider HQ that will probably extend up to 150 posts (maybe more). They are far from "cushy" and even now there are people working stupid hours to help meet operational outputs when they could have stepped away after their core hours, but they don't.

Plenty of additional work comes up daily and we look to who has capacity to take that on because we've ensured their TORs include these tasks. It's not perfect but we're making it work.

if a bin blows over I will pick it up.

Best to end this now, we won't agree and this isn't the topic for the thread.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
funny you should mention the F-4

the batch of late model ex USN ones they bought after the Falklands were much better than our home grown Spey ones. Went faster, climbed faster, and could comfortably outmanoeuvre them.
a perfect example of the ‘better’ but much more expensive and late British version showing itself to be rather a bit crap when compared apples to apples with the original article.
Stop diverting.

In any case, it wasn't all bad. The Spey outperformed the J-79 in some flight conditions. RAFG pilots were very happy with it down at low level.

A good friend of mine is a former Phantom driver. He was RAF and flew exchange with the Luftwaffe on RF-4s, so flew both types. He smiles quietly when people do the Spey down. There are reasons for that.
 

Mölders 1

Old-Salt
Not fùcking nearly, it hasn't.

Utter bollocks. In fact, utter, utter, utter bollocks. Typhoon didn't turn out to be a sprightly performer through 'happy happenstance'. It got to be that because it was designed to be a sprightly performer. Beating the Su-27 was a prime criterion.

Yes Air To Air Combat Bloody Well Has Been In Steep Decline Since WW-ll!

It is a fact that WW-l Pilots in their wood and canvas aircraft shot down far more enemy aircraft than the Fast Jet Pilots of post WW-ll. (Compare Richthofen' 80 Victories with the 17 Victories of that Israeli Fighter Ace). The U.S. has not had a double-figure Fighter Ace since Korea, and in Vietnam only a few Pilots/R.I.O.s made Ace status.
 
funny you should mention the F-4

the batch of late model ex USN ones they bought after the Falklands were much better than our home grown Spey ones. Went faster, climbed faster, and could comfortably outmanoeuvre them.
a perfect example of the ‘better’ but much more expensive and late British version showing itself to be rather a bit crap when compared apples to apples with the original article.
Again when are the RAF, FAA getting those MV22? Oh and the Royal Tank Regiment are asking about those M1A2? All free of charge?

You are a perma sending troll, who has never worn a uniform, I do recall when @stacker1 called you out on this and you replied“If I wanted to wear a uniform I’d work at ASDA”.
 
So not doing armed guard then?

I clarified earlier about civvies, I fully support their right to not do anything they are not contracted to do. My point was how it impacts on the military.

In these mythical contracts do the civvies do it all? From clearing up the bins (if needed) to a driving detail to a carrying furniture from one building to another or some other last minute job? Or do you mean a civvie might have to do one additional role to his core job?
Now you are being obtuse. That's such a small part. And most of the military gets the cheaper but not deployable MPGS to do guarding. So it's pretty much civilianisation with MTP.

The whole point is that every other thing you have asked I can give you an operational civilian organisation that provides that capability cheaper than the owning service could provide it.

The 19k admin assistant doesn't do that shock horror but the different contract civilian will if it's part of the contract.



Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
 
Not fùcking nearly, it hasn't.

Utter bollocks. In fact, utter, utter, utter bollocks. Typhoon didn't turn out to be a sprightly performer through 'happy happenstance'. It got to be that because it was designed to be a sprightly performer. Beating the Su-27 was a prime criterion.
bit of a bugger the SU-27 had been in front line service with the PVO by the time the first production Typhoon wunderwaffe took to the skies.

And yet again, try not to make a virtue out of its lateness, it first was a twinkle in the RAFs eye in 1972.

it only morphed into a full on air superiority fighter in the late 80’s because the Tornado ADV was so late and proved to be rather a lot crap and hopeless against the newly emerging Russian Teenski Fighters.
 
Some people might not like a lot of rubbish blowing all over the camp for the next 24 hours when they could just send a couple of juniors to pick them up and sweep up the litter before it ends up all over the place.
Quite easy to do with a versatile work force.
Untill they all sign off cos it ****...

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
 
Im fairly certain that Karen who has replaceed LCpl Clerk in the orderly room will not be going on operations.
That’s the whole point.

In any case the Coy clerk does not represent the whole pay structure.

I would rather have a decent clerk than a half rate clerk who can also scrape an ACMT pass.
 

Mölders 1

Old-Salt
actual or local Air Superiority?
When was the last time Allied Airforces had to go head to head with an enemies Air Force to gain Air Superiority to enable the Ground Forces to go about their business?

Hint, there have been very very few big Air Battles since 1945.
 
Untill they all sign off cos it ****...

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
cleaning is good practice for them. It’s not as if it’s a core requirement keeping yourself and your ‘home’ clean.
 
When was the last time Allied Airforces had to go head to head with an enemies Air Force to gain Air Superiority to enable the Ground Forces to go about their business?

Hint, there have been very very few big Air Battles since 1945.
RAF? some squabbling with the Egyptians in 1956.
 
When was the last time the Allies had to fight for Air Superiority?
Syria, which has shown up the much vaunted tactics of soviet trained SAM, FJ operators?
Aldo GW2, Kosovo, Bosnia, GW1, oh and that little trip down south where the FRS1 Harrier was not shot down by another aircraft, I’ll leave it for @PhotEx to tell you the kill loss ration for A2A.
 
bit of a bugger the SU-27 had been in front line service with the PVO by the time the first production Typhoon wunderwaffe took to the skies.

And yet again, try not to make a virtue out of its lateness, it first was a twinkle in the RAFs eye in 1972.

it only morphed into a full on air superiority fighter in the late 80’s because the Tornado ADV was so late and proved to be rather a lot crap and hopeless against the newly emerging Russian Teenski Fighters.
How many F3’s did the soviets down??
How many Migs have been splashed by NATO?
 
You wouldnt, you would tell the guard (and possibly duty driver) to do a 20 minute job.

Or you have have shit blowing all over the camp for 36 hours.

Lets be sensible here and think what would the average ROO/ROS do?
What you are doing, I think, is conflating contracting out a service to another provider with directly employing someone into your organisation.

If you contract out your waste management to an external firm they will quote for the specification in that contract. Any extra work will be done at additional cost.

If you directly employ someone into a role you write the job spec. Which means they can do whatever they want. You can even include a line about completing any other tasks which are reasonably asked of you. This is exactly the same as joining the army, you sign a contract and agree to the terms. This allows you to employ someone for less money who can fulfill any task you like.

Things get done in civvy street. The litter is picked up, potholes are filled in, last minute jobs that come up get done, people complete tasks which they are not directly contracted to do. The world goes on.

Some army roles do not need a soldier to complete them.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
funny you should mention the F-4

the batch of late model ex USN ones they bought after the Falklands were much better than our home grown Spey ones. Went faster, climbed faster, and could comfortably outmanoeuvre them.
Bollocks - the Speyed Phantoms lost about a hundred knots of theoretical top speed (no armament or pylons, just a measured-mile sprint - also known as "that part of the envelope nobody ever used on operations"), but had better climb and acceleration and more endurance down low (especially useful in the 'GR' bits of the job)

That's what you get for replacing turbojets with turbofans with 15% more thrust and lower SFC at low level - it was an expensive political bung to Rolls-Royce, but the Spey outperformed the J79 in the areas the Phantom was actually seeing use.

But hey, taking an F-4J and giving it 15% more power apparently makes it worse in every way than.. an F-4J. (Same airframe, different engine)
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
bit of a bugger the SU-27 had been in front line service with the PVO by the time the first production Typhoon wunderwaffe took to the skies.

And yet again, try not to make a virtue out of its lateness, it first was a twinkle in the RAFs eye in 1972.

it only morphed into a full on air superiority fighter in the late 80’s because the Tornado ADV was so late and proved to be rather a lot crap and hopeless against the newly emerging Russian Teenski Fighters.
Was this the point where "Replacement Jaguar" had to suddenly double its wing area and engine power, add a multimode radar and BVR missiles, and all those other capabilities that you're claiming Typhoon was never meant to have?

Seriously, drinking Brasso over lunchtime isn't a good idea, but now you're on the Toilet Duck chasers...
 

Cyberhacker

Old-Salt
Then when you ask, who will be doing Pte Bloggs duties, tours, exercises, unpaid overtime, jiff jobs, emergency call out etc the answer seems to be everyone else can cover it.
But who is doing Pte Bloggs' day-job while he's stagging on at the gate?

I never quite understand the logic of having an orbat (or MTOE for the septics) which is cut to the bone, then we start overloading those posts with additional duties... and when the time comes to deploy, first you have to form a rear-party - because that rear party is not a formed part of the orbat/TOE.

How often can a unit deploy at 100% actual strength, never mind paper strength?
 

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