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Royal Marines Gucci Rebrand

Why would you have soldiers stood around just in case? How’s about:

Stn WO (0800 Mon morning). “Bins blew over during the weekend. Litter everywhere “

Stn Cdr “yes I saw, have a word with the contractor”.

Stn WO. “Right’o, get it sorted as soon as I can”.

You wouldnt, you would tell the guard (and possibly duty driver) to do a 20 minute job.

Or you have have shit blowing all over the camp for 36 hours.

Lets be sensible here and think what would the average ROO/ROS do?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Whatever..... nonetheless the "Unsuitable For Britain's Need For A New Fighter" the F-15C Eagle is still in service with a 104-0 Kill-To-Loss Record. The Tornado F-3 has now long gone from R.A.F. service and shot down nothing.
And I'd take a Typhoon over an F-15C any day of the week.

I wasn't setting out to be needlessly picky. I was just remarking that the ADV that the Italians had wasn't the ADV at its peak. One could compare early and current F-16s. Different aircraft.
 
Whatever..... nonetheless the "Unsuitable For Britain's Need For A New Fighter" the F-15C Eagle is still in service with a 104-0 Kill-To-Loss Record. The Tornado F-3 has now long gone from R.A.F. service and shot down nothing.

As l said they (eventually) got the Avionics right but the Tornado F.3. was never going to be an effective Fighter.....it has 80% commonality with the Tornado GR 1.

The F-15 A-C variants are all 100% Fighters.
Yes, it’s 2020, the USAF need to modernise their fleet, the Royal Airforce has, so arguing about getting F15A’s back in the day is irrelevant, can the F15C fire a missile that feeds data back to the pilot and can be retargeted en Route?
 

Mölders 1

Old-Salt
And I'd take a Typhoon over an F-15C any day of the week.

I wasn't setting out to be needlessly picky. I was just remarking that the ADV that the Italians had wasn't the ADV at its peak. One could compare early and current F-16s. Different aircraft.
[/QUOTE

What l am saying is that the geniuses at BAE tried to make a Fighter out of a Bomber......with predictable results. It was only the Avionics that saved the Tornado F.3. face.
 

Mölders 1

Old-Salt
Yes, it’s 2020, the USAF need to modernise their fleet, the Royal Airforce has, so arguing about getting F15A’s back in the day is irrelevant, can the F15C fire a missile that feeds data back to the pilot and can be retargeted en Route?

The F-22 Raptor is the U.S.A.F. premier Fighter.
 

Alamo

LE
Stn CDR "By the way, I'm a little disappointed that you haven't already had that conversation, and you didn't have the foresight to get the bins emptied on Thursday, when the weather forecast clearly stated that we would be getting high winds over the weekend. Consider this your MPAR. Toodlepip."
Stn WO’s got more better things to think about than weather forecasting and bins. Got contractors for that.
 

Mölders 1

Old-Salt
So why are you banging on about the RAF getting F15A in the 1980’s?
[/QUOTE]

Because at least some of the terrible problems in the Armed Forces today can be traced back to the misspent billions back in the 1980's.

Also even today billions are being spent on high profile projects like the Typhoon whose "Bread And Butter" role of Air To Air Combat has been in steep decline since WW-ll ended.......
 
Yes, the aircraft specified and bought to defeat what were originally only known as "Ram-L" (later MiG-29) and "Ram-K" (later Su-27) both within and beyond visual range... was actually only ever meant to be a replacement for an advanced trainer and day-only light attack aircraft.

Remind me again what Jaguar's air-to-air capability was like?

A living example of Churchill's comment - "Occasionally he stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.”

try not to make a virtue out of the happy hapstabce that EFA turned out better than hoped, if very late, and long after the Cold War ended.
The Blue Circle fiasco left the RAF devoid of a credible air superiority fighter at the height of the Cold War.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Whatever..... nonetheless the "Unsuitable For Britain's Need For A New Fighter" the F-15C Eagle is still in service with a 104-0 Kill-To-Loss Record. The Tornado F-3 has now long gone from R.A.F. service and shot down nothing.

We were meant to have bought the long-gone F-15A/B, so waving claims for the F-15C is somewhat irrelevant.

So, to an extent, is brandishing the Great Beka'a Valley Turkey Shoot as proof of the F-15's puissance - with the disparity in training and support, swapping F-15s for Tornado F.3 wouldn't have dramatically changed the result.

For the USAF, they shot down some fleeing Iraqis in 1991, and a few of their own helicopters, but the F-15's reputation owes most of its lustre to the Israelis - and slapping the Syrians in 1982, while well executed, wasn't exactly the most demanding of tasks...
 

Mölders 1

Old-Salt
We were meant to have bought the long-gone F-15A/B, so waving claims for the F-15C is somewhat irrelevant.

So, to an extent, is brandishing the Great Beka'a Valley Turkey Shoot as proof of the F-15's puissance - with the disparity in training and support, swapping F-15s for Tornado F.3 wouldn't have dramatically changed the result.

For the USAF, they shot down some fleeing Iraqis in 1991, and a few of their own helicopters, but the F-15's reputation owes most of its lustre to the Israelis - and slapping the Syrians in 1982, while well executed, wasn't exactly the most demanding of tasks...

Alright then......how many Air To Air Combat Victories have the cripplingly expensive F-22 Raptor and Typhoon racked up in their 10+ years of service?

The money spent on Typhoon would have gone a long way on equipment that the Army could use.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
try not to make a virtue out of the happy hapstabce that EFA turned out better than hoped, if very late, and long after the Cold War ended.
The Blue Circle fiasco left the RAF devoid of a credible air superiority fighter at the height of the Cold War.

The same way that the USAF had most of the F-15A fleet grounded in its early years, because they ran out of working engines?

Or is that okay because only problems with British airframes count?
 
Because at least some of the terrible problems in the Armed Forces today can be traced back to the misspent billions back in the 1980's.

Also even today billions are being spent on high profile projects like the Typhoon whose "Bread And Butter" role of Air To Air Combat has been in steep decline since WW-ll ended.......

don’t be harsh on the 80’s. That prize fiasco Nimrod AEW generated me lots of overtime to get together the deposit on the mortgage.
And yes, very early on, everyone inside the programme knew it would and never could work, but onwards to the eventual end after the best part of a Billion (1980’s money) to the fire dump it went.

the 80’s were dark days for defence, but golden years for the shareholders, so much money spent to achieve so little, and as you say laying the foundations of many of the problems that haunt defence to this day.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
What l am saying is that the geniuses at BAE tried to make a Fighter out of a Bomber......with predictable results. It was only the Avionics that saved the Tornado F.3. face.
But you can comb back through aviation history and find many examples of that, the point being that it's not just kinetic performance that makes an aircraft work/dangerous.

The F-35's kinetic performance has been criticised. I wouldn't dismiss it as a fighter, though.

You'll find plenty of aircraft that are nominally the same but are very different. The listed top speed of the F-15 is Mach2.54. But they're now fitted with laminated canopies to reduce radar signature. You'll probably find that the canopy is de-laminating/melting if you go after that top speed with current squadron aircraft.

The F-18E maxes out at Mach1.6. Earlier versions entered service capable of Mach1.8. I'd suggest that you'd be happier in an -E rather than an -A in contested air now, and if you were flying one against the other you'd want the -E.

The F-16 entered service with a climb rate of 60,000ft/min. A Block 50/52 is listed as '50,000+ft/min'. Same point pertains. Two AIM-9Js, an M61 and an AN/APG-66 versus AIM-9X/IRIS-T/Python-4 or 5/AMRAAM, an M61 (still) and an AN/APG68 (or an AN/APG-83 AESA if you want to come further up to date)? No thanks.

The F.3 was a good piece of kit, even if history overtook it slightly (it's a while since I've seen 'Ram-K' and 'Ram-L' mentioned). Dogfighting wasn't envisaged (although the ADV could outperform an F-4, which was still seen as no slouch in the right hands). Getting up there and dealing with Soviet Long-Range Aviation was the task, which meant very long legs and BVR. For that, it was well-suited.

Not just the radar/missile package but datalinks and so on (In a similar vein, people have had some nasty surprises when exercising against the Gripen, which is regarded by many as a lightweight fighter; it in fact has a fairly handy electronic capability that people ignore at their peril.)

Underinvestment meant that the ADV was a late bloomer but if it had been delivered as envisaged its reputation would have been different. That did not stop some very competent crews making sure that it was a credible platform along the way, not just at end of service - and it's a fair point to note that the Italians handed back early an aircraft that wasn't fully representative of the standard at the time they had it.

Anyway. I'll shut up now. Maybe.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Also even today billions are being spent on high profile projects like the Typhoon whose "Bread And Butter" role of Air To Air Combat has been in steep decline since WW-ll ended.......
Not fùcking nearly, it hasn't.
try not to make a virtue out of the happy hapstabce that EFA turned out better than hoped, if very late, and long after the Cold War ended.
Utter bollocks. In fact, utter, utter, utter bollocks. Typhoon didn't turn out to be a sprightly performer through 'happy happenstance'. It got to be that because it was designed to be a sprightly performer. Beating the Su-27 was a prime criterion.
 
So why are you banging on about the RAF getting F15A in the 1980’s?

Because at least some of the terrible problems in the Armed Forces today can be traced back to the misspent billions back in the 1980's.

Also even today billions are being spent on high profile projects like the Typhoon whose "Bread And Butter" role of Air To Air Combat has been in steep decline since WW-ll ended.......
[/QUOTE]
What? Typhoon is a multi Role fighter aircraft which is still maturing, can you remind me what service were you in?
 
The F.3 was a good piece of kit, even if history overtook it slightly (it's a while since I've seen 'Ram-K' and 'Ram-L' mentioned). Dogfighting wasn't envisaged (although the ADV could outperform an F-4, which was still seen as no slouch in the right hands). Getting up there and dealing with Soviet Long-Range Aviation was the task, which meant very long legs and BVR. For that, it was well-suited.
at the time they had it.

funny you should mention the F-4

the batch of late model ex USN ones they bought after the Falklands were much better than our home grown Spey ones. Went faster, climbed faster, and could comfortably outmanoeuvre them.
a perfect example of the ‘better’ but much more expensive and late British version showing itself to be rather a bit crap when compared apples to apples with the original article.
 
don’t be harsh on the 80’s. That prize fiasco Nimrod AEW generated me lots of overtime to get together the deposit on the mortgage.
And yes, very early on, everyone inside the programme knew it would and never could work, but onwards to the eventual end after the best part of a Billion (1980’s money) to the fire dump it went.

the 80’s were dark days for defence, but golden years for the shareholders, so much money spent to achieve so little, and as you say laying the foundations of many of the problems that haunt defence to this day.
Hindsight is something you and @Mölders 1 love living in.
 

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