Royal Marines Gucci Rebrand

everone tends to forget that EFA wasn’t a hot shot air superiority fighter, it was a replacement for the Jaguar as originally envisioned - it was very much in the F/A-18 class - although the Germans really wanted an even simpler single engined aircraft. That it was such a stellar performer, it was able to be fairly effortlessly pushed out as a really good air superiority fighter was a lucky bonus, but it still suffers as it doesn’t have really long legs as it’s small.

Would the RAF buying the F-15 have killed off the British aviation industry? Well, it managed to survive the 5 years of full time dicking around the Germans put into the Eurofighter that pushed back the ISD nearly 5 years and added £Billions to the cost. Tornado ADV was a diversion that delivered a very poor result for a very big slice of wedge, very late, only delivering an effective plane in time for its OSD.

like far too many programmes at the time, I’m looking at you Nimrod AEW, Tornado ADV was the non preferred option with the end user, pushed through to benefit the crooks at GEC, Marconi, Ferranti and co who made a career of promising the moon, but delivering hulks for the fire dumps.

The RAF was very lucky the Cold War ended when it did, it would have had to fight against the Soviets next generation fighters with F-4’s - but at least the shareholders got rich while the RAF got bent over and stiffed time after time.

A2A refuelling? Now there’s another sorry tale of woe, who’s full impact is only now hitting us as the RAF inducts so many boom refuellers into its drogue refuelled service. Even a small fraction of the untold £Billions squandered in the 80’s would have bought the RAF at the time a good refuelling capability. It’s not as if the market at the time wasn’t awash with older passenger aircraft suitable for converting. And It’s not as if 1982 hadn't flogged the existing ad hoc fleets to death while proving how vital a capability they were.
You really have no idea, you make sharkey Ward sound sane.

Typhoon is the USAF wet dream when combined with F35 or F22. Have you spoken to any of the aircrew who have flown any or all of these? I have from both sides of the pond and to put it bluntly the American aircrew are envious of the capabilities of Typhoon.

The “airtanker” deal is what it is, we needed a modern tanker, Brown had bet the economy on black and red landed. So it was that or nothing. After Haden Cave,


The flogged to death AAR capability in 1982? Care to explain?


The Tornado F3 was a very capable air defender, just as you mates in the USAF, USN, USMC who got their arses handed to them regularly through out its service life.

It was the go to interceptor during Granby, but like much in life was pulled off interceptions to give Saudi aircraft the kill, which they fucked up, again and again.

Now give the Station Commander at

a ring, ask him his opinion.
 
y and where it does exist our industrial base often let's us down.
The Navy doesn't run vast amounts of US kit, even taking into account SWS in CASD.

In specialised cryptos and radios there are some FMS sourced equipments, the odd specialised system, but its far from 'vast'.

Hulls - not US; submarines - not US; rotary wing - not US; Guided weapons systems - not US: RADAR - not US. Torpedoes- not US......

We tend to buy into US FMS programmes for 5E capability and even then where there isn't an interoperable UK equivalent and seeking to create one neither is practical or cost effective.
you funny.

Trident? Even comes with stickers saying ‘Property of the US Navy’, who makes the Harpoons sitting on the front of all the war canoes? Phalanx? The 30mm Bushmasters on everyone’s upper decks?

submarines? You mean the ‘British designed‘ submarines utterly reliant on Electric Boats design expertise? Trident boats? missile compartment is - 100% American

F-35’s, and ALL their cleared weapons....

coming in smartly stage left, all medium calibre guns, 57mm and 127mm - American.
new anti ship missile? That will be American, ditto that other aspiration, ASROC, so say goodbye to Stingray on the helos and T23 Torpedo magazines too as you join the RAF using an American lightweight torpedo.

current helicopters? Currently Italian after generations of licence built American designs, but that’s shortly to be rectified as soon as the Americans select their Blackhawk replacement and the Navy goes back to the future.

so, other than the submarines and aircraft being effectively American, and pretty much all your warfighting kit, nothing much American.
 
It's how you manage and treat people. I've an increasing number of CS in my teams. They go well beyond their TORS to provide support and are made to feel valued members of my teams. Where we can we use the bonus schemes to reward them, some are now becoming Reserves because they enjoy the culture.



In that ramble there more about a lack of planning and foresight indicative of chappy management and behaviours than workforce values.

Jiff jobs.... speaks volumes

Duties/tours/exercises there for uniformed personnel and able to do that sensibly if you use civilian support sensibly.
I can condense your post into, "Give the shit jobs to the military"

If you have 600 bods of various ranks and you replace 10% with civilians, generally the duties, exercises, tour commitments, fastballs (and yes jiff jobs, if the bins have blown over in a storm you can send pte bloggs to tidy it up, Mr bloggs will tell you to **** off) and all the other bollocks has to be covered by the remaining 540



Evidence that. You can't because its utter rubbish, so tell me why would anyone trust your opinions when you trot out bullshit like that?
As well as my comment above about soldiers having to have more of the burden.
Lets start when I was a tom, they closed 16 regt (The large garrisons) down because it was cheaper to hire civvies, who when working weekend get around 18 quid a hour (I know this because I have a relative working there). Send a civvie on a course? They wont be putting up with a multiple room with strangers they want a Hotel room. Hand over the armoury to civilians? They have exact hours and if you want them outside those hours, you best be paying overtime, they dont care if a landy has broken down and you will be late, its not part of their contract. QM department (All civvies except the QM and RQ) needed to set and take down an event on the weekend? Are you paying? Best get some soldiers from elsewhere to do it then. Etc etc.

I'll clarify its not the civvies who are a problem, why should they work outside their contract? Its the tits who think they get like for like when they swap a soldier for a civvy.
 
You’re wrong. Jaguar was one aircraft it was supposed to replace but not the only one.

Hence all the misinformed posts over the years about turning a great fighter into a bomb truck. A2G was always a core role.

I said that. It’s core mission was to fight Mano y Mano over the IGB smashing up the Fantasian hordes streaming West, not cruise around the GIUK gap swatting Backfires.

You’re closer to being right about the tanker. The standard Airbus offering also has a boom and we really could do with one now. But Gordon Brown and his insistence on double bookkeeping gave us Airtanker, since acknowledged as the king of almighty bog-ups.
ah Airtanker!

where we pay more annually to use an austere convertion of a civil airliner, than other users paid outright for a fully speced up genuine military A330 MRTT’s with a boom AND a huge cargo door and reinforced floor.

FWIW, the RAF have a tender on their table from AIRBUS offeribg to rework our pretend tankers into real ones with booms. But that would mean buying out the Airtabker crooks for that to happen
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
everone tends to forget that EFA wasn’t a hot shot air superiority fighter, it was a replacement for the Jaguar as originally envisioned
Yes, the aircraft specified and bought to defeat what were originally only known as "Ram-L" (later MiG-29) and "Ram-K" (later Su-27) both within and beyond visual range... was actually only ever meant to be a replacement for an advanced trainer and day-only light attack aircraft.

Remind me again what Jaguar's air-to-air capability was like?

A living example of Churchill's comment - "Occasionally he stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.”
 
You are a sensible and informative poster. Good to see you back and I hope you stay on.
I like @jim30’s posts. Every one a miniature tale of a plucky band of resolute civil servants buffeted by the nasty politicians and misunderstood and underloved (despite being completely unrepresentative of the nation) by the public they seek to help.

Every story edging towards acknowledgement that the CS isn’t the quietly purring Rolls Royce that it likes to think that it is yet still treating ‘Yes Minister’ as a guide rather than a parody. Not one story ever getting to the point that no-one is ever sacked no matter how incompetent or how much money is wasted, because, well, either the politicians are being nasty or the public simply doesn’t understand.

There’s always an excuse and it’s almost always one of: previous decisions (dear boy), under-funding (don’t you know), everyone trying their best in difficult circumstances (honest), and somehow criticism of non-MOD CS isn’t fair when applied to MOD CS.

‘We are where we are’ the new motto of Whitehall, ‘We’ve genuinely done our best’ echoes around the right clubs in London. Meanwhile the MOD plunges from financial crisis to financial crisis, PHE is revealed as a disgrace, the country remains one of the most centralised in the world.

‘We know best how to run your lives’. Heaven forfend they give those ghastly oiks an opportunity to run their own for that way lies the very faintest possibility that they just might do a better job than Sedwill’s band of merry men and women (and all non-binary fxlk).
 
The RN have already absolutely rinsed the Defence Budget by building obsolete missile targets that we don't need. They need to find some way to ring-fence money that the Army could really do with. What better way, than to change a couple of badges and jazz up littoral manoeuvre, another thing that we don't really need.
I listened to an interesting Pod Cast by James Holland and Al Murray (Pub Landlord fame) Both have good knowledge on military matters, they were talking with a so called expert who stated that defence budgets and especially British defence budgets are geared towards Naval funding, followed by Air Force and the poor relation is always the Army. This is because we are an island nation that absolutely needs a Navy for security purposes, requires a limited air defence capability Which is expensive, but can do without an Army, because you can always raise, equip and train a basic infantry based army very quickly, you only need to maintain a small well equipped specialist force in peace time (tanks, engineers, artillery & logistics) Makes sense I guess and this has been the MOD thinking on and off since the end of WW2, apparently a poorly equipped army in Germany from 1945 to 2020 was small change in defence budget terms, the conflicts including the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan were small blips that were thought to be able to be absorbed without making major changes, this only changed due to public outcry with body counts increasing due to poor kit (body armour and Snatch Landrover’s)
on the whole though, the Navy has the lion share, RAF got the second bite and the Army got what was left.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
I can condense your post into, "Give the shit jobs to the military"

If you have 600 bods of various ranks and you replace 10% with civilians, generally the duties, exercises, tour commitments, fastballs (and yes jiff jobs, if the bins have blown over in a storm you can send pte bloggs to tidy it up, Mr bloggs will tell you to **** off) and all the other bollocks has to be covered by the remaining 540




As well as my comment above about soldiers having to have more of the burden.
Lets start when I was a tom, they closed 16 regt (The large garrisons) down because it was cheaper to hire civvies, who when working weekend get around 18 quid a hour (I know this because I have a relative working there). Send a civvie on a course? They wont be putting up with a multiple room with strangers they want a Hotel room. Hand over the armoury to civilians? They have exact hours and if you want them outside those hours, you best be paying overtime, they dont care if a landy has broken down and you will be late, its not part of their contract. QM department (All civvies except the QM and RQ) needed to set and take down an event on the weekend? Are you paying? Best get some soldiers from elsewhere to do it then. Etc etc.

I'll clarify its not the civvies who are a problem, why should they work outside their contract? Its the tits who think they get like for like when they swap a soldier for a civvy.
So with all that drivel, you still can't evidence your claim. Thanks,

You join the Military to do the exercises to go on tours. You use civilian support sensibly to make sure military do what military need to do and no more.

if you write the correct contracts and recruit the right people, you get the right service, it's not rocket science.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I like @jim30’s posts. Every one a miniature tale of a plucky band of resolute civil servants buffeted by the nasty politicians and misunderstood and underloved (despite being completely unrepresentative of the nation) by the public they seek to help.

Every story edging towards acknowledgement that the CS isn’t the quietly purring Rolls Royce that it likes to think that it is yet still treating ‘Yes Minister’ as a guide rather than a parody. Not one story ever getting to the point that no-one is ever sacked no matter how incompetent or how much money is wasted, because, well, either the politicians are being nasty or the public simply doesn’t understand.

There’s always an excuse and it’s almost always one of: previous decisions (dear boy), under-funding (don’t you know), everyone trying their best in difficult circumstances (honest), and somehow criticism of non-MOD CS isn’t fair when applied to MOD CS.

‘We are where we are’ the new motto of Whitehall, ‘We’ve genuinely done our best’ echoes around the right clubs in London. Meanwhile the MOD plunges from financial crisis to financial crisis, PHE is revealed as a disgrace, the country remains one of the most centralised in the world.

‘We know best how to run your lives’. Heaven forfend they give those ghastly oiks an opportunity to run their own for that way lies the very faintest possibility that they just might do a better job than Sedwill’s band of merry men and women (and all non-binary fxlk).
I got slightly turned-on reading that.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
I listened to an interesting Pod Cast by James Holland and Al Murray (Pub Landlord fame) Both have good knowledge on military matters, they were talking with a so called expert who stated that defence budgets and especially British defence budgets are geared towards Naval funding, followed by Air Force and the poor relation is always the Army. This is because we are an island nation that absolutely needs a Navy for security purposes, requires a limited air defence capability Which is expensive, but can do without an Army, because you can always raise, equip and train a basic infantry based army very quickly, you only need to maintain a small well equipped specialist force in peace time (tanks, engineers, artillery & logistics) Makes sense I guess and this has been the MOD thinking on and off since the end of WW2, apparently a poorly equipped army in Germany from 1945 to 2020 was small change in defence budget terms, the conflicts including the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan were small blips that were thought to be able to be absorbed without making major changes, this only changed due to public outcry with body counts increasing due to poor kit (body armour and Snatch Landrover’s)
on the whole though, the Navy has the lion share, RAF got the second bite and the Army got what was left.
If you take CASD out of the equation, which is an odd case in how it was funded/derived and then lumped onto the Navy for funding, and you look at the published Defence budgets and EP I think you'll see that narrative doesn't hold water., but where is a proportional increase I'd say it's reflective of the nature of the domain.

Using slightly older figures than 19/20s
Submarines – £44.0bn
Combat Air – £18.0bn
Ships – £19.0bn
Air Support – £16.6bn
Helicopters – £10.6bn
Land Equipment – £19.1bn
Complex Weapons – £13.5bn
Intelligence, Surveillance, Target
Acquisition & Reconnaissance – £4.6bn

It's the CASD and AWE element that distorts the picture.
 
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Mölders 1

Old-Salt
You really have no idea, you make sharkey Ward sound sane.

Typhoon is the USAF wet dream when combined with F35 or F22. Have you spoken to any of the aircrew who have flown any or all of these? I have from both sides of the pond and to put it bluntly the American aircrew are envious of the capabilities of Typhoon.

The “airtanker” deal is what it is, we needed a modern tanker, Brown had bet the economy on black and red landed. So it was that or nothing. After Haden Cave,


The flogged to death AAR capability in 1982? Care to explain?


The Tornado F3 was a very capable air defender, just as you mates in the USAF, USN, USMC who got their arses handed to them regularly through out its service life.

It was the go to interceptor during Granby, but like much in life was pulled off interceptions to give Saudi aircraft the kill, which they fucked up, again and again.

Now give the Station Commander at

a ring, ask him his opinion.
Just one thing......back in 1994 the Italian Air Force leased 24 Tornado F.3.s from the R.A.F.......the Italians were so disgusted with them that they returned them early.

They got the Avionics (eventually) right on the Tornado ADV but the Aircraft itself was never going to be a worthwhile Fighter Plane.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
Your assertion was VAST amounts of kit. I still don't see that in what you've written and despite me making the point about CASD quite clearly up front you chose to ignore that. Or didn't understand..?

, all medium calibre guns, 57mm and 127mm - American.
Count them up - how many - vast?
new anti ship missile? That will be American, ditto that other aspiration, ASROC, so say goodbye to Stingray on the helos and T23 Torpedo magazines too as you join the RAF using an American lightweight torpedo.
There are none in service and just like your much vaunted here come the V22 any plans that you've listened in to, may well dispate into nothing. (and the ASM is not a certainty there are a number of runners).

current helicopters? Currently Italian after generations of licence built American designs, but that’s shortly to be rectified as soon as the Americans select their Blackhawk replacement and the Navy goes back to the future.
Once again more 'might happen' drivel. So the truth is today the RN uses no US helicopters.

So despite your ludicrous assertion, the vast majority of RN equipment capability isn't US provided.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I listened to an interesting Pod Cast by James Holland and Al Murray (Pub Landlord fame) Both have good knowledge on military matters, they were talking with a so called expert who stated that defence budgets and especially British defence budgets are geared towards Naval funding, followed by Air Force and the poor relation is always the Army. This is because we are an island nation that absolutely needs a Navy for security purposes, requires a limited air defence capability Which is expensive, but can do without an Army, because you can always raise, equip and train a basic infantry based army very quickly, you only need to maintain a small well equipped specialist force in peace time (tanks, engineers, artillery & logistics) Makes sense I guess and this has been the MOD thinking on and off since the end of WW2, apparently a poorly equipped army in Germany from 1945 to 2020 was small change in defence budget terms, the conflicts including the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan were small blips that were thought to be able to be absorbed without making major changes, this only changed due to public outcry with body counts increasing due to poor kit (body armour and Snatch Landrover’s)
on the whole though, the Navy has the lion share, RAF got the second bite and the Army got what was left.
See my other recent post(s).

That was what the TA used to be for: with some honourable exceptions, providing lots of infantry very quickly.

Two things have happened. One is that even the 'humble' infantryman has become rather more expensive to equip these days (it's not boots, denims, hairy shirt, woolly pully and helmet, rifle, water bottle and large pack). The other is that the TA as was no longer exists. We now have the Army Reserve and FTRS, which too regularly have to infill what used to be Regular Army posts because, fundamentally, we do not have enough people.

The TA used to be our last resort, in the sense that by the time you were using it you were on your uppers. Now, we habitually use reservists.

The old model isn't just broken, it is gone. Also, you need to consider the speed of modern conflict. In WWII, infantry training was about 12 weeks to begin with, falling to about six weeks for battle casualty replacements later.

We don't have the luxury of time and we don't have the industrial capacity to equip those people.

How would you train these new soldiers, much less equip them?

Also, size: the Regular Army at the beginning of WWII was three times the size of what we have now, plus there was that expandable reserve.

We're thin.

But your assumptions about budgets are also wrong. The Army was doing very well whilst Iraq and Afghanistan were going on, as those were the priorities at the time. It's not the case that the RN and RAF do better. In fact, for many years a problem was that the cut was a third each no matter what.
 
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Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Just one thing......back in 1994 the Italian Air Force leased 24 Tornado F.3.s from the R.A.F.......the Italians were so disgusted with them that they returned them early.

They got the Avionics (eventually) right on the Tornado ADV but the Aircraft itself was never going to be a worthwhile Fighter Plane.
Yes, but the aircraft which went to Italy weren't up to the latest RAF spec. One of the reasons that the Italians didn't keep the Tornado F3 on was because it would have meant bringing the airframes they had up to Capability Sustainment Programme standard.
 

Cromarty

Old-Salt
Aussie’s have released a very comprehensive defence equipment plan today. Unlike the UK, they actually have a f$&king plan, which appears to be costed out!

Why is the UK military so shite at coming up with basics, should we not simply cut and paste what the French and/or Australians are doing? Answers on a postcard please.
I'm sure this is simply a mistake on the current Liberal (conservative) governments behalf and will be rectified by the next Labor (leftard) government.

OR

Haha! I bet you all you wished your Great, Great, Great, Grandfathers had been sent Down Under!!
 

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