Royal Australian Navy Submarines to go Nuclear

Yokel

LE
From Professor Julian Lindley French:

Even if France has some grounds for complaint France is hopelessly over-playing its hand. To withdraw its ambassadors from both Canberra and Washington, the first time since 1783 in the case of the latter, and to cancel an event celebrating France’s alliance with the US is just downright petulant (ironically to commemorate the French victory over the Royal Navy at the Battle of the Capes in September 1781). The simple fact is that Paris screwed up the submarine contract with the Australians and enabled the Americans and British to out-manoeuvre France using the very kind of statecraft in which Paris prides itself. At the very least, France’s foreign intelligence service, DGSE, should have picked up something was developing between the three ‘anglosaxon’ powers, but they failed. Paris also had enough indicators that the Australians were becoming increasingly concerned about the submarine contract. As the Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison said, “I think they [the French] would have had every reason to know that we had deep and grave concerns about the capability of the Attack-class submarine was not going to meet our strategic interests and we made it very clear that we would be making a decision based on our strategic national interest”.
 
And yet nobody wants it. I can't find a review that says it's anything other than an expensive and mediocre platform. It's lost a host of competitive tenders, and not through the lack of deploying the dark arts of persuasion. No existing customer wants any more, and orders have been cancelled LR&C.

So, the facts point to one of three possibilities. Either a) the platform is crap, or b) nobody wants to deal with the French, or c) a combination of a & b above.

I'm not surprised. Not everyone needs a carrier capable a/c. F18s F16s are cheaper, very capable and have the benefit of economies of scale, and if you ever want to really, really plug into uncle Sam's eyes and ears it will be on a US aircraft as Canada is finding out. That doesn't make Rafale bad as a weapons system on the tech scale, it's hampered by politics and the fact that there are cheaper options cleared for US ordnance to be had if you don't mind being cozy with the US.
 
"Several people received doses in excess of 5 msv".

OK, not ideal, but for context, the DOE limit for the public is 1 msv/y. A radiation worker in the US can take up to 50 msv/y (although you would be stopped from working before reaching that).

Hardly at a level which suggests total incompetence though.

Edit: thanks for the link.

Reminds me....... I was once classed as a radiation worker.

I/we were to escort a shipment. Stood on the tarmac at SKSA while 2 scientists argue about the radiation levels. One says i can't be anywhere near it while the other says (words to the effect of) well, we'll just make him a radiation worker.

Not the most comfortable trip..... but nice and warm.
 

Slime

LE
Meanwhile Germany yesterday signed a declaration of intent on a 'Military Space Partnership' with, er, Australia.

French diplomatic and military circles predictably (and ironically) have gone stratospheric. Looks like Berlin has decided to join the top level trolling of the Quai d'Orsay

To be fair, France pretty much banned Germany from buying a fighter aircraft it wanted a few years ago, so it’s only swings and roundabouts.

Maybe the Germans need to get a bit tougher and decide to buy a batch of F35 fighters after all.
 

Bad Smell

Old-Salt
And I raise you a view from 2018 taken in the opposite direction.

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Blimey. Does thee have a linky ?
not much on either govt site (because I think both are trying to be discreet - or at least contain the hissy fits - but the Inspector General of the Bundeswehr tweeted it yesterday complete with pictures of the signing:

 
Meanwhile Germany yesterday signed a declaration of intent on a 'Military Space Partnership' with, er, Australia.

French diplomatic and military circles predictably (and ironically) have gone stratospheric. Looks like Berlin has decided to join the top level trolling of the Quai d'Orsay
FFS, then soon this through the Ardennes business again, all those surrendering unwashed beggars with their white flags in the hand and their bread under their sweaty armpits all the time. Then these constant parades in this shithole Paris and all the mademoiselles who want to get rogered by Fritz, Rüdiger, Hans and Wilhelm and on the top this tedious collaboration business.
It's getting boring and exhausting, and I'm not the youngest anymore.
 
FFS, then soon this through the Ardennes business again, all those surrendering unwashed beggars with their white flags in the hand and their bread under their sweaty armpits all the time. Then these constant parades in this shithole Paris and all the mademoiselles who want to get rogered by Fritz, Rüdiger, Hans and Wilhelm and on the top this tedious collaboration business.
It's getting boring and exhausting, and I'm not the youngest anymore.

Don't forget the cheese, that stinky French cheese.
 
To be fair, France pretty much banned Germany from buying a fighter aircraft it wanted a few years ago, so it’s only swings and roundabouts.

Maybe the Germans need to get a bit tougher and decide to buy a batch of F35 fighters after all.
It won't happen, the German government is looking at what they consider politically opportune, here the keyword is Franco-German friendship, and not what would make sense militarily.
Unless they fall out so much over FCAS, that there is simply no other option. It already worked with Boxer and Typhoon, and with the MGCS there is also a sometimes a bit of quarrelling.
 

Slime

LE
It won't happen, the German government is looking at what they consider politically opportune, here the keyword is Franco-German friendship, and not what would make sense militarily.
Unless they fall out so much over FCAS, that there is simply no other option. It already worked with Boxer and Typhoon, and with the MGCS there is also a sometimes a bit of quarrelling.

Make no mistake, I don't think it will happen, just think it should happen.

FCAS wont solve the nuclear bomber option for Germany, and this whole saga just shows how much Germany has changed politically since the end of the cold war.
 

Dredd

LE
Now i don't pretend to be knowledgeable about current affairs and geopolitics etc.

But... i fail to see how this is in the UK interest being part of this pact? Money for UK industry with respect to participating in design, build, training of the submarines i can see. But that is a very small outcome vs trade with China.

Oz procuring 12 Nuclear subs actually means them buying 1.5 as they wont actually have the resource or funding for 12 (The UK only has funding for 6 attack?). Which possibly means as mentioned above, the US basing subs in Oz.

I'm not sure what benefit the UK will get here. Why does the UK need to help the US be world sea police? Why does the UK need to antagonise the Chinese?

I personally think we should play both sides for us only. The South China seas issue is a for the local countries to deal with, and maybe with US assistance by request.

Nothing to do with the UK. We should focus on more business with the Chinese, US and Oz?
I'm sure the UK comes off worse financially with these things. Maybe the great EU would like to get involved instead? As an independent nation, the UK should remain impartial and sell everyone else the tools (thinking Lend lease but for UK...!).

And if we wanted to park a boat (or two) in that region?
 

MoleBath

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Meanwhile Germany yesterday signed a declaration of intent on a 'Military Space Partnership' with, er, Australia.

French diplomatic and military circles predictably (and ironically) have gone stratospheric. Looks like Berlin has decided to join the top level trolling of the Quai d'Orsay
Long track record Wernher Von Braun and colleagues.



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Reminds me....... I was once classed as a radiation worker.

I/we were to escort a shipment. Stood on the tarmac at SKSA while 2 scientists argue about the radiation levels. One says i can't be anywhere near it while the other says (words to the effect of) well, we'll just make him a radiation worker.

Not the most comfortable trip..... but nice and warm.
I remember a metabolism study we did in the labs, involving iodine isotope labelled test article that was hot enough they made us badge up and wear lead aprons throughout the study, as they knew we would be in the room for some long days for the next week (taking blood samples at various timepoints)

all very well run everything going swimmingly, until about 4 days in someone does a sweep of the room and realises the sharps bins we had cleverly placed behind us for convenience were now virtually glowing, and that despite our natty aprons and badges, we had been successfully cooking our own kidneys for the duration.

oh how we laughed.
 

DSJ

LE

To a Francophile such as myself it is no surprise that France has recalled its ambassadors from Australia and America. Nor that their government is bad-mouthing we Brits, or that military cooperation and trade talks are at risk as the French continue to fulminate at the Aukus submarine deal agreed last week.

I could have predicted such a response for France are a nation of sulkers. Were throwing one's toys out of one's pram an Olympic Sport the French would be on top of the podium. It's in their blood. I have one golden rule for my half-French daughter as she approaches 17. Drinking and smoking I can tolerate, cherie, but never let me catch you sulking.

I remember my introduction to the French sulk. It was my first game of rugby for my new club in the Languedoc, a local derby against the next town along on the Mediterranean coast. It was a fierce but fair contest, one that we just edged. At the final whistle I went to shake the hand of my opponent only to find him and his teammates stomping off to the dressing room. I was astounded. I had played rugby around the world, shaking the hands of Kiwis, Fijians, Australians and Americans, but in France I was to learn that the art of losing gracefully was not in their repertoire.


Another quirk of French rugby was the coach's habit of announcing the starting XV on the day of the match. In the Anglophone world, the line-up is revealed at training on the Thursday evening. I liked it that way, it allowed me to prepare mentally in the 48 hours before kick-off. This once was the custom in France but increasingly players who were aggrieved at finding themselves among the reserves didn't turn up on Saturday. Incredible. And to think esprit de corps is a French expression.

This streak of sulkiness runs through French sport. Remember Eric Cantona and his infamous kung fu kick of 1995. He blamed the Crystal Palace fan for provoking him but in reality the Frenchman launched himself into the stand because he was sulking after being sent off for Manchester United.

Cantona was the king of the football sulk - he came to England after being banned in France for throwing a ball at a referee and them calling the disciplinary committee idiots to their face - but there are a number of dauphins; Nicolas Anelka, for example, known in England where he played much of his football as the 'Incredible Sulk', the entire squad at the 2010 World Cup squad who refused to train, and Paul Pogba, as brilliant on the pitch as he is at sulking.

Things aren't much better in rugby. When England beat France in the 1991 World Cup quarter-final the coach of Les Bleus, Daniel Dubroca, manhandled the referee after the game and accused him of being a cheat. More recently, there have been sulky squabbles between players and staff at the 2011 and 2015 World Cups, and in 2018 Guy Noves sued the French Federation for €1m after he was sacked following a run of six consecutive defeats. This was the same Noves who retired from international rugby in 1979 aged 25 after being dropped from the France squad.

As I said it's a shame for France that sulking isn't an Olympic sport. They could do with the medals. It might also stop them, well, sulking. At the Tokyo Games this summer French boxer Mourad Aliev staged a one-hour ringside protest after he was disqualified from his men's super heavyweight bout for headbutting. It may have been the fact Aliev's opponent was a Brit that brought out the sulk in him, as was the case with the French cycling team in the 2012 Olympics.

As Britain dominated the Velodrome at the London Games, France’s cycling team director Isabelle Gautheron muttered that Team GB's success could only be attributed to “magic wheels”. As it turned out the “magic wheels” on the British bikes were made by a French company, the same one that also manufactured her team’s bike wheels. “The French should know the secret of our success because you make the wheels of our bikes,” said the then PM David Cameron, irritated at the Gallic insinuation.

The French sulk is largely a cultural phenomenon, born out of an insecurity that has accentuated in the last 150 years as Britain and then America became the predominant global empires. The world tilts on an Anglophone axis and France can't bear it.

No one has symbolised this Gallic petulance more than Charles de Gaulle, who spent much of his four years in London during the second world war sulking. Winston Churchill was often exasperated at de Gaulle's ingratitude, complaining in September 1942 that he's "shown marked hostility towards us". De Gaulle was still at it in 1963, refusing to let Britain enter the EEC. President Jacques Chirac was a notorious sulker, once cancelling an Anglo-French summit in a fit of pique after squabbling with Tony Blair, and Emmanuel Macron has proved a worthy successor. Will he ever snap out of his Brexit sulk? Of course, one could the say the same of some Remoaners. Pull yourselves together. Anyone would think you were French.

I think the French would sulk less if there was competitive sport in the French educational system. My daughter spent half a term last year throwing a Frisbee in P.E. What good was that!? Competitive sport, whatever the level, is invaluable for children. It teaches them how to win with magnanimity and lose with dignity. Those lessons, once learned, are never forgotten, and the boys and girls in adulthood will treat those two imposters of Triumph and Disaster just the same in every walk of life. In France children play competitive sport at clubs outside school hours, and the most talented are then enroled in academies where the emphasis is on winning not character-building. Britain has the Victorians to thank for seeing how sport could instil in schoolchildren self-discipline, selflessness and equanimity.

So accustomed have I grown over the years to the French sulk I now find it quite endearing, like their pronunciation of some English expressions that I've taught them.

'Issy Fit', for example.
 
And yet nobody wants it. I can't find a review that says it's anything other than an expensive and mediocre platform. It's lost a host of competitive tenders, and not through the lack of deploying the dark arts of persuasion. No existing customer wants any more, and orders have been cancelled LR&C.

So, the facts point to one of three possibilities. Either a) the platform is crap, or b) nobody wants to deal with the French, or c) a combination of a & b above.
Out of interst, does nobody want it as they’re selling an aircraft designed for a carrier to country’s that don’t have carriers?

I know the French Air Force operate it, but is that more political than anything else?

Edit, and I know other successful aircraft like the Hornet and Phantom started out as Cartier borne aircraft, but they’re also big heavy beasts of a weight that the French didn’t want to have on their own carriers .
 

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