Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by subbsonic, Nov 17, 2006.

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  1. I'm sure there was a specific thread here a few minutes ago that identified a specific vehicle travelling at speed. Myself, I would have moderated the VRN out as the topic was, to my mind worthwhile.
    I assume the RMP Minority Report team are after the driver now??
    Anyway here's my 10 cents worth:

    This lady gets my vote, when you are young, you are invincible. Thirty years ago I was that young soldier in a Landrover, then a Marina Twin Carb. Now I look back and wonder how I survived? It looks a lot different now, I have kids of my own and looking back at myself, the future sometimes scares me!

    John Maule at Leeds University and Ragnar Lofsted and Kings have done some excellent work on the psychology of risk. When you feel you have more personal control over a situation, you are more inclined to take risk. But it gets worse if you are an Alfa-Male, ad a bit more testosterone and you are away! ( The odds of getting shot by a female firearms officer are exponentially lower than with a male one).

    I've seen guys set a pattern in a high RCIED threat environment, purely because they were tooled up to the nines. ( but you still can't double-tap a 150lb car bomb.) Closer to home, some will happily give their kids cell phones, but are up in arms over a mast that emits 99% less signal than their kid’s phone!

    Sadly you can't give young squaddies age and experience. Eight years ago I sat on the net for an eternity, whilst one of my 2-man C/S gave a running commentary on 2 young lads dying in a single vehicle RTA on route GULL. It probably took them 30 minutes to die, on the net it seemed like a year. Looking back the irony is that there must have been at least 10 other clapped-out landrovers racing through the teeming rain to try and save them. MEDEVAC arrived just too late, and yes I am in that strange minority that thinks medics need to be able to fast-rope.

    These guys were total strangers but we were all touched by the tragedy, futility and collective sense of failure. We ran through so many "what ifs" on our debrief, as I'm sure did the RMP, the local BG and the Medics. And yes, hard as nails, we cried after the debrief, we were probably not the only ones that day.

    There are 10 fatal RTA's in the UK every day, if Bin Laden made cars we would have bombed or invaded industrial cities in most of western Europe, and Detroit years ago. It would be illegal to be a motorist.

    When folks get killed in a contact, the entire nation is touched by the incident. When someone dies in an RTA nobody stands up on TV and says we should withdraw from motoring now.

    The sorrow and tragedy friends and family feel when someone dies in and RTA is no less than the family that looses a son or daughter in a contact.

    Road safety is a force Protection issue. The Master Driver and that 19 year old RMP LCPL that pulls you over, are 100% right on their message. If you are one of the iPod generation, they might not have the most effective way of putting it over.*

    As someone with more points on my license than most, now I'm a Dad I suddenly want to see more traffic cars on the road.

    Pity you can't buy age and experience

    * I know Helen Mirren won't work for everyone
  2. Well posted subsonic and if P3HO had taken a leaf out of your book and made his statement so thoughtfully no doubt the thread would have remained.
    Complaining about a speeding vehicle when you are doing the same speed following it in a BMW isn't the way to go about it though and all P3HO managed to do was make himself look a complete ARRSE.
  3. Soldier_Why

    Soldier_Why LE Moderator

    I deleted the thread. As was pointed out by a few posters on that thread (and you'll have to take my word for it now), the individual who started the thread's motives were suspect and this was hardly the forum or manner in which to pursue them.

    I agree though that it is a worthwhile topic, and you may now continue to discuss it on this thread that you have kindly started. :wink:
  4. I have no idea about the original posters motives - but it is an important issue. On Sunday it is World Day of Remembrance for road traffic victims, I have a small poster in front of me that was printed by Roadpeace and it lists names and ages of people who have died in road traffic accidents, many of them young lives. The first row lists names and their ages read as 31, 22, 18, 6, 25, 14, whole families in some cases wiped out.

    I know that a charity called SCARD has worked with the Army and had been invited along to Pirbright to give a talk about road safety issues (speeding, drink driving etc). I am glad to hear that some sections of the army are taking the deaths very seriously.

    It doesn't make you feel any better when you lose your son to be told that the army lose more people to road traffic accidents than any other reason.

    Land Rover Wolfs are lethal in the wrong hands, it was the drivers first driving duty out of camp in the accident that killed my son and the other passengers, was he over confident? he was most certainly inexperienced.
    They had to identify my son from his dental records, take it from me no one is invincible.
  5. I've no idea what the original thread stated, but I've attended quite a few fatalities in my time. Most were due to excessive speed. The damage done to the body due to the velocity of the vehicle at the time of impact is immense, even when wearing a seatbelt.

    I attended a lecture the other day given by a North Wales Traffic Officer and even with my own experience, it was one of those 'sit up and pin your ears back' moments. (Anybody out there with a small child, please ensure that your baby seat is a rear facing).

    Of the Military fatalities which I have seen, in nearly every case it was down to the military driver. I still see Army vehicles being driven with abandon around Yorkshire. They are at their worst when the are free runners (duty drivers are good for it). When taken to task by RMP or CivPol, the reaction of quite a few Army personnel is to react as if someone was being petty and spoiling their fun. You see the whinges on this site. One knob of an ex officer on this site even complained about the colour scheme of RMP cars. FFS. Vehicles driven at excessive speed kill.

    The advice given by the Master Drivers would only be ignored by a fool and usually at someone elses peril. It is ignored though.

    Road Safety isn't just an issue for the Police/Master Driver, it should be gripped in barracks by Units as well. You wouldn't allow a soldier to f*ck about with a loaded weapon, why let one f*ck about with a couple of ton a speeding metal?
  6. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    I regularly have to deal with the aftermath of serious RTAs, from visiting soliders in ITU to taking relatives to view the body of a soldier killed in a RTA. As Biscuits says, they are almost always down to excess speed, careless driving or not wearing seatbelts.

    And yet, no matter how many times it happens; no matter what advice or training is provided, people still don't get the message. I was recently collected by an MT driver to go to the airport. He was 30 mins late, and tried to make up for it by driving at 60+ through residential areas with a 30 limit, until told to slow down. He didn't put his seatbelt on until instructed to do so. His attitude was immature and petulant. Driving is supposed to be this man's trade; why should he not be expected to do it as professionally as other soldiers are expected to do theirs?
  7. As Bikkies said, in our trade we see a lot of RTA. When I was in Belgium I was regularly called out to that straight stretch of road just before the German border where there are trees both sides and no room for error. It seemed to me that in the majority of cases, Dad got away with it whilst Mum and the kids had to be buried. Another thing I noticed was that seeing and dealing with FTA did not improve the way sybill and Pro drove.
    When young we are all invincible - except we are not.
  8. I completely agree with the sentiments already expressed on this thread. I was recently in hospital and the duty driver (a LCpl in his early 20s) collected me.

    Over the 20 odd miles, he frequently drove with only one hand on the steering wheel, took the racing line through roundabouts without looking over his shoulder, (but didn't take the racing line when out in the countryside on an empty road) and tailgated the vehicle in front.

    I was so grumpy that I gave him both barrels and the MTWO has subsequently accompanied him on a test drive (and confirmed that he is not a safe driver). With some luck, we might change this soldier's attitude before he kills himself or someone else.

    If I see a military vehicle being driven badly, I always track down the unit and advise the MTO. We kill far more personnel in RTAs than we do on ops - and most of those are preventable.

  9. You have a wild imagination MOD.

    My motive for posting was to highlight a pratt behind the wheel. But if this forum isnt interested in road safety I will reform back to writing stuff about the Naafi and PAYD. Would this be better for your moderating taste?

    If you keep papering hard enough you wont see the cracks.
  10. How do we know that you didn't just post that reg no. up in order to stitch some guy up? There are alternative means of sorting out bad drivers like contacting a MTO.

    But as I said before, a BMW driver commenting on another person's driving standards?????? :roll:
  11. I am really pleased to read the above sensible responses, but why can't the army get a grip on this?

    As a civilian I think it is all too quick - probably a weeks driving course, pass the test, then another 10 days course on Land Rovers, and then they are let loose on the other side of the road, with a powerful vehicle, and with very few hours experience. (My son's accident was in Germany).

    The army know it is a problem, I know it has been featured in Soldier magazine. I was told by a guy from the British Legion that often at Christmas they would park up vehicles that had been in fatal accidents outside Barracks as a shock tactic, but still nothing works.

    I never expected to lose my son in such a senseless way, and since then I have read of other incidents, they all have the familiar ring to them, Land Rover left the road and smashed into a tree, either serious injuries or fatalaties.

    The original post that was deleted complained that a Land Rover was doing 85mph on the motorway. Well from what I have learned they are supposed to be limited to 60mph? (I think).

    The aftermath that this stupidity leaves cannot be imagined, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone - but I would like to think that people learned from it, unfortuantely it doesn't seem like they ever will, and it will just continue.

  12. SoldiersMum,
    I'm a vehicle mechanic and I can state that the present Landrover is capable of speeds in Excess of 70mph.There are warning stickers fitted to the vehicle stating the maximum speed it is to be driven at. Unfortunately there is no device that physically/mechanically limits the speed.The problem of young drivers speeding is not one that will go away. I'm sure there are plenty of us out there who know of the other killers behind the wheel,alcohol and tiredness etc.
    My condolences at your loss and I hope that if one young or old indvidual reconsiders their driving habits as a result of reading this thread then that loss would not have been in vain.
  13. Hear, hear.

    Soldiersmum, I can only add to the sentiment of RWAJ, and add my own condolences for your tragic loss.

    As a poster on the original thread, I, like the matelot, was commenting on the way in which a driver/vehicle was identified on this site. Like the matelot says, there are other means to get the job done.

    On consideration, my comments to P3HO may have been a bit harsh - apologies.
  14. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    I was at RAF(H) Wegberg in the early 80s, and taking the hearse (the only one in the forces, apparently), to mortuaries in Germany, Holland, Belgium and France along the routes from the various garrisons to the ferry ports to collect the bodies of young servicemen was a depressingly regular duty weekly or more in summer.

    Curiously, the hearse was one vehicle MT drivers always drove carefully, even though they didn't have to look at the body in the back.

    P3HO - I don't think there's any evidence that this forum is not interested in road safety - quite the opposite, in fact. It's probably not the place to put specific vehicle details on, however, for reasons already explained. Why not contact any RMP Duty Room or MOD Police, who will deal with the matter appropriately.
  15. Soldier_Why

    Soldier_Why LE Moderator

    What cracks are those mate? The thread was removed because you posted a readily identifiable VRN. If you have an issue with this particular vehicle/driver then there are proper channels - posting the details on a forum such as this is not one of them.

    As an aside - how do you know the vehicle in question was travelling at 85mph?