Road pricing, or a hidden agenda?

#1
So the Gov't wants to scrap fuel duty & Car Tax:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4075490.stm

In its place they want to introduce Road Pricing based on what type of roads you use & collect payment by using vehicle mounted tracking linked to sattelites.
At first glance it looked good to me, as I live & travel in a Rural area. Then I realised that there is another use for this technology - should they so wish, it could be used to check on your vehicle's whereabouts for any reason the Gov't feels interested in.
ID cards, sattelite tracking, what next - cameras built in to TV's "to make sure you're safe in your own home?"

George Orwell was a prescient man.
 
#3
The best way to make it fair to everyone is to abolish the VLD (Veh License Disc) or Road Tax, but increase fuel duty, that way the further you drive the more you pay, my inlaws who don't do a lot of mileage would benefit greatly from this scheme as would I.
 
#4
Sarge said:
The best way to make it fair to everyone is to abolish the VLD (Veh License Disc) or Road Tax, but increase fuel duty, that way the further you drive the more you pay, my inlaws who don't do a lot of mileage would benefit greatly from this scheme as would I.
Spot on sarge!!!

This per mile charge will never work as it will cost the same for a nissan micra to travel 10 miles as it would for a 40 tonne 18wheeler. Hardly fair or good for the environment.

lets encourage people to use less petrol/diesel, and thus charge those that use more of it more money. Sort of a pay as you go tax.
 
#5
Agent_Smith said:
Sarge said:
The best way to make it fair to everyone is to abolish the VLD (Veh License Disc) or Road Tax, but increase fuel duty, that way the further you drive the more you pay, my inlaws who don't do a lot of mileage would benefit greatly from this scheme as would I.
Spot on sarge!!!

This per mile charge will never work as it will cost the same for a nissan micra to travel 10 miles as it would for a 40 tonne 18wheeler. Hardly fair or good for the environment.

lets encourage people to use less petrol/diesel, and thus charge those that use more of it more money. Sort of a pay as you go tax.
Thanx for the support, maybe we should set up a campaign to this effect.

The other reason the Gov have got it wrong is, how are they going to pay for every veh in britain to have these satelite boxes fitted?? No doubt they would heap the bill on the poor motorist.
 

Mr_Fingerz

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...des&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_PROD_009249

If you think that the scheme will be unworkable, look at the above link to the Lorry Road User Charge (LRUC) scheme which is due to come on line in 2007/08.

As to increasing the excise duty on road fuels, this is exactly what we have now. There was a fuel duty escalator brought in by the Tories (and since dropped) which pushed excise duty on oils up by more than the rate of inflation. Excise duty on road fuels is now £0.4710 pence per litre, VAT equates to 7/47ths of the retail price call it £0.13ppl. So the total tax take on your fuel at the forecourt is c£0.62ppl on a retail price of about £0.85ppl. The tax take from Excise Duties alone is in the region of £23 Billion a year (roughly 1/8th of all government revenue).

There a wide disparities in price between (for example) the Highlands and Islands and South East England. The rate of excise duty has probably gone as high as the market will stand, as was demonstrated by the fuel protests of a couple of years ago. There is also a fuel fraud problem in the UK as a whole; in 2003 it cost the Treasury £850 Million. By putting duty rates up further, it could only encourage the fraudsters to commit more fraud.

Loathe it or loathe it, road pricing is here to stay.
 
#7
But surely people would be willing to pay more on their fuel if they didnt have to pay their road tax bill?

Im sure most people would agree with the pay as you go system (for fuel) as it costs more the more you use, rather than on how far you go. Seems a lot fairer to do it that way
 
#8
So why not use both ideas (though simplified). Scrap Road Tax, and put the money onto the Fuel Duty, it wouldn't need a massive rise if it's scaled to the 'average' road user (probably about 10p per litre). It encourages people to use fuel efficient cars and penalises heavy road users. For the main A-roads and motorways use tolls, collect the ticket at one end and pay the tariff based on the distance travelled when you leave.

On top of that, increase the use of free school travel so that we can try and do away with the school runs (that includes support for after-school activities.

The main causes of road traffic are that the infrastructure hasn't been improved (apart from small schemes) for twenty years yet the way thea people work has changed dramatically. Fewer of us work fixed hours and because of the changes of house pricing few of us live close to our work-places anymore.

I'm am extremely distrustful of the proposed system. This together with the ID cards would mean that people were traceable almost constantly. It appears to be far too much of a police state. For instance, if this black box is able to update it's position on a regular basis, then it will be able to tell if you are speeding at all - who needs Gatsos?
 

Mr_Fingerz

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
History would appear to say "no" Agent Smith.

The margins within the road haulage industry are so small, that any price fluctuation in fuel spplies can wipe out whatever profit that the haulier might have had on a given job. The road haulage industry is the biggest consumer of ULSD in the country. Their levels of Vehicle Excise Duty are much greater than those for private cars, and the maintenance and inspection regimes much tougher.

Individuals probably don't think about how much they use their vehicles until they can't. Then a sort of nimbyism takes over. They've bought their car, they've paid their taxes, and now they want to drive anywhere, and pollute anywhere, that they damned well please.

If you pay about £2000.00 a year for road fuel, as I do, then £100.00 road tax is a bit of an irrelevance.

And, as I said earlier, the £850 Million lost in road fuel fraud is another incentive for the government to look at road pricing.

The privacy argument is a bit of a non-starter as well. If you have a mobile phone, the phone companies know where you are. It doesn't take much for a warrant under RIPA and the government will know where you are too.
 
#13
How long before I pick up another Series III and bung my "real" wagon's plates on it whenever I'm going further than the shops?

Hypothetically, of course constables.
 
#14
Mr_Fingerz said:
History would appear to say "no" Agent Smith.

The margins within the road haulage industry are so small, that any price fluctuation in fuel spplies can wipe out whatever profit that the haulier might have had on a given job. The road haulage industry is the biggest consumer of ULSD in the country. Their levels of Vehicle Excise Duty are much greater than those for private cars, and the maintenance and inspection regimes much tougher.

Individuals probably don't think about how much they use their vehicles until they can't. Then a sort of nimbyism takes over. They've bought their car, they've paid their taxes, and now they want to drive anywhere, and pollute anywhere, that they damned well please.

If you pay about £2000.00 a year for road fuel, as I do, then £100.00 road tax is a bit of an irrelevance.

And, as I said earlier, the £850 Million lost in road fuel fraud is another incentive for the government to look at road pricing.

The privacy argument is a bit of a non-starter as well. If you have a mobile phone, the phone companies know where you are. It doesn't take much for a warrant under RIPA and the government will know where you are too.
Surely that would encourage industry to use the railways as they are the most efficient method of transporting goods. I know this will risk a large number of jobs but it's another upheval that we need to make. And yes i do realise that the railway infrastructure would need a huge overhaul, but surely this could be the spark we need to help regenerate the railways and cut down on our over-reliance of the car.
 

Mr_Fingerz

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
Well APNR and Gatsos will pick up your Series III, compare their records to the road network sensors and you'll get a visit from a man in a suit. He'll ask you some hard questions, if HMRC get the job of administering the system (they've got LRUC) they'll have some extensive powers to protect the revenue, and those questions might end up with you getting a strongly worded letter, or seven years in nick.
 
#16
Oh okay then, an entirely spurious set of plates and an address in Belfast, West. Works for the locals.

No, in truth I don't mind paying a reasonable amount for using the roads.
And I'd particularly like it if it was mostly applied in fuel duty, as I'd just buy mine over the border (as I've already been doing for some time).
Tolls on motorways and main routes I can live with.

I won't however be permitting any form of tracking device on board my vehicle unless it is fitted at my request and serves a useful purpose to me.

So... short version... I shan't be having one one of those either :D
 
#17
Mr_Fingerz said:
History would appear to say "no" Agent Smith.

The margins within the road haulage industry are so small, that any price fluctuation in fuel spplies can wipe out whatever profit that the haulier might have had on a given job. The road haulage industry is the biggest consumer of ULSD in the country. Their levels of Vehicle Excise Duty are much greater than those for private cars, and the maintenance and inspection regimes much tougher.

Individuals probably don't think about how much they use their vehicles until they can't. Then a sort of nimbyism takes over. They've bought their car, they've paid their taxes, and now they want to drive anywhere, and pollute anywhere, that they damned well please.

If you pay about £2000.00 a year for road fuel, as I do, then £100.00 road tax is a bit of an irrelevance.

And, as I said earlier, the £850 Million lost in road fuel fraud is another incentive for the government to look at road pricing.

The privacy argument is a bit of a non-starter as well. If you have a mobile phone, the phone companies know where you are. It doesn't take much for a warrant under RIPA and the government will know where you are too.
Funnily enough I don't carry a mobile mainly because I don't want the missus constantly ringing to ask where I am, how soon I'll get home and failing to keep to any sort of plan. There are some of us who do value our privacy!
 

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