RMP Fit For Purpose from the BBC

#1
Sorry if this has been done. I just got pointed at this by journalist Paul Burnell:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7933350.stm#

Are 'Redcaps' fit for purpose?

By Paul Burnell
BBC File On 4

Soldiers Dean Cooper and Daley Schofield thought a friend was taking them for a drive in a high-powered car around the town of Celle, in Germany, when they found themselves arrested on suspicion of attempted murder...........................
 
#2
Anyone got any dates for this? I'm sure one of those lads was in Gutersloh's det centre in 2002.
 
#3
The head of the RMP Brigadier Colin Findlay would not go into detail about the Cooper and Schofield case but said the force was more than capable of carrying out covert operations. He added that its operations had reached the national benchmark required by Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary (HMIC).

"All of my detectives are trained to Home Office standards... so I am perfectly satisfied that the competence levels and technical training are adequate. HMIC found the same thing."
If you have been on the AGC Forum, there was a bit of a dabate on this very subject.

Brig Findlay is not being entirely truthful about the competence measured by the report. Check out the thread on it!
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#5
I'd love to know the name of this junkie Redcap that set them up.
 
#6
rockape34 said:
Stacker1 - Beeb report dated :10 March 2009
Cheers but I was after the date they were arrested if this is the same one I think it is, it occured years ago.
 
#8
SuperTrooper said:
The head of the RMP Brigadier Colin Findlay would not go into detail about the Cooper and Schofield case but said the force was more than capable of carrying out covert operations. He added that its operations had reached the national benchmark required by Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary (HMIC).

"All of my detectives are trained to Home Office standards... so I am perfectly satisfied that the competence levels and technical training are adequate. HMIC found the same thing."
If you have been on the AGC Forum, there was a bit of a dabate on this very subject.

Brig Findlay is not being entirely truthful about the competence measured by the report. Check out the thread on it!
Can't find the thread. Any chance of a link ST?
 
#10
plant_life said:
Mikal said:
Anyone remember the near mutiny over the RMP in Munster around 1980?
Whys that; bananas taken off the menu?
They'd been overdoing the misuse of their position and it came to a boil after the usual friday night scuffle near the Bahnhof when they allowed GCP to take those arrested back to their place and stood back whilst certain assaults took place AIUI. First I knew was when the RSM called an emergency mess meeting. Many senior people in the provo coy were moved out afterward. It was either near XMas 79 or just after Spearpoint in 80 - pin it down by when the digital watches became popular.
 
#11
I've met some really sound RMP's here in Herrick. Not **** or pedantic, they just want to get on with their job. Speaking with them they do admit they do get some complete chompers who take the p155 but they are trying to educate them.
 
#12
I seem to remember it being around Christmas, the reason being was two RMP turned up at the Big Ben in Soest with inflated chests, there was no trouble, they were just jollying around in a Cortina with blue lights, and tried to big it up in front of the Deutche civs, a polite enquiry was made as to whether they were from Munster and they were on their way.
 
#13
wolverine9314 said:
SuperTrooper said:
The head of the RMP Brigadier Colin Findlay would not go into detail about the Cooper and Schofield case but said the force was more than capable of carrying out covert operations. He added that its operations had reached the national benchmark required by Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary (HMIC).

"All of my detectives are trained to Home Office standards... so I am perfectly satisfied that the competence levels and technical training are adequate. HMIC found the same thing."
If you have been on the AGC Forum, there was a bit of a dabate on this very subject.

Brig Findlay is not being entirely truthful about the competence measured by the report. Check out the thread on it!
Can't find the thread. Any chance of a link ST?
There you go:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=48323.html
 
#15
The scope of HMIC report in question is important to consider. It was not set out to be a thematic review of why and how the RMP has got it wrong so many times on a number of high profile investigations and prosecutions arising out of Iraq and elsewhere.

The HMIC Report looked at higher level management structures, systems and processes in order to see if the RMP was positioned and configured to deliver an acceptable service. On the whole it was (adequate to good), but, of course, this does not necessarily mean that at a tactical or operational level service delivery is actually happening.

The HMIC report asked different questions about the RMP than those required to scrutinise their repeated failure to investigate properly and effectively - and Brig Findlay knows this! The Judicial Review being driven by Phil Shinner will be interesting.

An area the HMIC Report politely avoided was the RMP’s subservient relationship with the military Chain of Command, which it always defers to. This is a fundamental issue and explains why the RMP and the Service Police will never achieve investigations that are seen to be fair and independent.

Indeed Article 6 of EHRC enshrines the Right to a Fair Trial. Soldiers should ask: How can the Military Justice System achieve a fair trial if the MOD own an investigatory and prosecuting machinery that is overly supportive of the military Chain of Command and is indeed part of it? It is only a matter of time before some one mounts a legal challenge based on this argument. But, on the other hand, if you get nicked by the RMP, given their current standards, you will probably get off anyway - just get your solicitor to look at their procedures.
 
#16
Blue-sentinel said:
The scope of HMIC report in question is important to consider. It was not set out to be a thematic review of why and how the RMP has got it wrong so many times on a number of high profile investigations and prosecutions arising out of Iraq and elsewhere.

The HMIC Report looked at higher level management structures, systems and processes in order to see if the RMP was positioned and configured to deliver an acceptable service. On the whole it was (adequate to good), but, of course, this does not necessarily mean that at a tactical or operational level service delivery is actually happening.

The HMIC report asked different questions about the RMP than those required to scrutinise their repeated failure to investigate properly and effectively - and Brig Findlay knows this! The Judicial Review being driven by Phil Shinner will be interesting.

An area the HMIC Report politely avoided was the RMP’s subservient relationship with the military Chain of Command, which it always defers to. This is a fundamental issue and explains why the RMP and the Service Police will never achieve investigations that are seen to be fair and independent.

Indeed Article 6 of EHRC enshrines the Right to a Fair Trial. Soldiers should ask: How can the Military Justice System achieve a fair trial if the MOD own an investigatory and prosecuting machinery that is overly supportive of the military Chain of Command and is indeed part of it? It is only a matter of time before some one mounts a legal challenge based on this argument. But, on the other hand, if you get nicked by the RMP, given their current standards, you will probably get off anyway - just get your solicitor to look at their procedures.
Again? This is usually rather interesting in respect to the MoD and the ECHR:

http://www.btinternet.com/~aspals/cases.htm
 
#17
The bottom line is that soldiers and the service community (and here I am thinking about those in places like Germany and Cyprus) deserve a better policing service than is on offer from the RMP. At best the RMP are nothing more than enthusiastic amateurs and bungling buffoons. At worst some of them have been in the frame for Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice.

The evidence is stacked against the RMP. Just research the adverse comments made by various Judge Advocates about their performance during significant investigations. Surely what happens in Court is the acid test of any policing service? Brig Findlay and his Staff need to stop hiding behind the general and overly polite findings of the first HMIC report (2006). They need to tell us what they have done to address the critical observations of the re-inspection report a year later (now apparently buried) and why they get so heavily slated at court - again and again.

The File on 4 programme looked at the tip of an Iceberg.

Good luck to Cooper and Schofield in their action. 8 months in MCTC awaiting trial on highly questionable evidence? Hmmmmm. It’s hard enough to remand suspected serious criminals in civvie street. Just what was the Military Justice System doing to our soldiers in the case of Operation CONIFER (referred to in the BBC report)?

All it takes is for a few serving, or ex RMP SNCO’s to come forward to the civil police, or people like Phil Shinner, and clear their consciences about their knowledge of possible suppression and less than effective investigations into serious crime, particularly in Iraq. I should think the RMP top brass are quite worried about what might come out in the future. The truth will always come out in the end.
 
#18
Blue-sentinel said:
The bottom line is that soldiers and the service community (and here I am thinking about those in places like Germany and Cyprus) deserve a better policing service than is on offer from the RMP. At best the RMP are nothing more than enthusiastic amateurs and bungling buffoons. At worst some of them have been in the frame for Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice.

The evidence is stacked against the RMP. Just research the adverse comments made by various Judge Advocates about their performance during significant investigations. Surely what happens in Court is the acid test of any policing service? Brig Findlay and his Staff need to stop hiding behind the general and overly polite findings of the first HMIC report (2006). They need to tell us what they have done to address the critical observations of the re-inspection report a year later (now apparently buried) and why they get so heavily slated at court - again and again.

The File on 4 programme looked at the tip of an Iceberg.

Good luck to Cooper and Schofield in their action. 8 months in MCTC awaiting trial on highly questionable evidence? Hmmmmm. It’s hard enough to remand suspected serious criminals in civvie street. Just what was the Military Justice System doing to our soldiers in the case of Operation CONIFER (referred to in the BBC report)?

All it takes is for a few serving, or ex RMP SNCO’s to come forward to the civil police, or people like Phil Shinner, and clear their consciences about their knowledge of possible suppression and less than effective investigations into serious crime, particularly in Iraq. I should think the RMP top brass are quite worried about what might come out in the future. The truth will always come out in the end.
I think you need to qualify your comments a little bit. Have you ever worked in the RMP? If you did you would find that they are not 'enthusiastic amateurs' and re the perverting case, you aren't painting a whole capbadge with one incident are you? If so then perhaps all all members of one regiment like to kill tour guides in Cyprus and others shoot innocent civilians in Ireland?

Methinks you need to do some research on a subject before jumping in with both feet!
 
#19
Blue-sentinel said:
The bottom line is that soldiers and the service community (and here I am thinking about those in places like Germany and Cyprus) deserve a better policing service than is on offer from the RMP. At best the RMP are nothing more than enthusiastic amateurs and bungling buffoons. At worst some of them have been in the frame for Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice.

The evidence is stacked against the RMP. Just research the adverse comments made by various Judge Advocates about their performance during significant investigations. Surely what happens in Court is the acid test of any policing service? Brig Findlay and his Staff need to stop hiding behind the general and overly polite findings of the first HMIC report (2006). They need to tell us what they have done to address the critical observations of the re-inspection report a year later (now apparently buried) and why they get so heavily slated at court - again and again.

The File on 4 programme looked at the tip of an Iceberg.

Good luck to Cooper and Schofield in their action. 8 months in MCTC awaiting trial on highly questionable evidence? Hmmmmm. It’s hard enough to remand suspected serious criminals in civvie street. Just what was the Military Justice System doing to our soldiers in the case of Operation CONIFER (referred to in the BBC report)?

All it takes is for a few serving, or ex RMP SNCO’s to come forward to the civil police, or people like Phil Shinner, and clear their consciences about their knowledge of possible suppression and less than effective investigations into serious crime, particularly in Iraq. I should think the RMP top brass are quite worried about what might come out in the future. The truth will always come out in the end.
How is your son doing anyway? :roll:

Edited to add: People in glass houses, etc. Hasn't your force come in for critism in the past too? But that isn't important, is it?
 
#20
I can assure you that I (and others) have done plenty of research. For one thing RMP case ‘delay’ statistics are very disturbing not to mention cases where RMP personnel have Breathalysed the front seat passengers of vehicles and reported them for drink drive on the basis that the individuals concerned were vehicle commanders – I mean this is just laughable. I hope you were not one of the RMP that thought this was lawful. I could go on with examples.....

However,’ Enthusiastic Amateurs’ can do a reasonable job most of the time. I do not for one moment question the dedication, or commitment of most in the RMP, particularly new joiners and those putting in long (often thankless) hours in the GPD - you are doing a difficult job and you are under resourced because your senior officers do not know intimately what the job of policing is really about, or the pressures you are under. Most of your senior officers are either out of date, out of touch or transfered in to improve their promotion prospects and therefore do not know the core and very technical business of policing.

Also, your organisation overall does have some serious structural flaws and some of your commissioned officers clearly do not know the criminal law, or the procedure around it, as well as they should – otherwise the RMP would not have been criticised so markedly in a number of recent court cases. Are you disagreeing with a number of eminent Judges about RMP performance? By the way when was the last time you gave evidence in court?

Another consideration is this: If RMP training and service delivery was on a par with the civil police then why is it that nationally the civil police do not recognise this? It is a fact that the civil police do not allow RMP personnel to effectively ‘transfer’ directly into the civil police – they have to be trained from scratch. If the RMP was a recognised ‘professional’ police service this would not be the case. Hence the term 'Enthusiastic Amateurs' – it is not necessarily a derogatory term.

Do I sound like someone who does not do my research? However, I do understand your loyalty to your Cap Badge, which is commendable. I trust though you would never allow this loyalty to make you think you are above the law.

Let’s see how the Judicial Review, mentioned by the BBC, pans out and how well the RMP did in fact investigate alleged torture and murder. It will be for a High Court Judge to determine whether, or not it was an effective investigation and compliant with UN Conventions. Presumably you are well up on the Convention I am talking about?
 
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