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RLC pride

#1
I moved this to a new thread because Qman was getting annoyed his was getting hijacked.
best_dressed said:
Not all RLC Soldiers are solely employed with putting widgets on shelves in a safe support area, some RLC trades are directly employed at 1st line receiving just as much crap as their counterparts in the Teeth Arm units.
I don't doubt some of us do but it seemed the majority of coffins I saluted in Afghanistan contained the bodies of the infantry, I rarely hear of of the RLC going toe to toe with the Taliban

To say that RLC Soldiers should concentrate on their job and forget infantry soldiering is a schoolboy error that can only be thought of by someone who can't see out of their storeshed.
My point is we don't learn infantry skills we learn a load of crap taught by people with no experiance other than books, We never seem to have time to do trade training but bags of time pretending we are in the SAS and this shows on tour when we can't do our job

Try telling the Pet Ops that deployed on the RM MOG battle groups or flew forward of the FEBA to set up forward refuelling points in Afghanistan and Iraq, that they only have to worry about doing "their trade" and they will probably slap you round the face with the cheesy snake until it bleeds.
I crossed the border of Iraq 2 days after the war started in my green uniform with all of sixty rounds with me being the in back of the rear soft skinned rover covering the back of the convoy, as the vast majority of us didn't know what the fuck was going on it was good to see the infantry around. When we did set up a temporary base we came under fire (from the yanks) and it would be comical if it wasn't serious that people (all ranks) ran around like headless chickens.

Don't tar all the RLC with the same brush, some of them have actually gone outside the wire of the Camp Bastions and Shaiba's I use to do COs escort in unprotected rovers to and from Basra although I never came under attack to go and earn some Corps pride the hard way!
There are some outstanding blokes in the RLC shame there are so many fat idle twats read some of my previous posts about fablon sick chits and MPC/MPCA in Qmans thread. Wheres the pride in fat NCOs who might as well be civvies? The fact the some other corps may have this problem is irrelevant, Lets get it rid of it out of our corps.

P.S. Does anyone know where i can buy some TRF's now Deepcut is shut?

MY bold
The bits about me going outside the wire is not to big me up its just to prove I don't sit on my arse in a storeshed all the time, but I still don't see myself as a steely eyed killer of the night either.
 
#2
As most of the basic soldiering is done at Phase One and taught by RLC soldiers, I am curious who you want teaching our Soldiers??? Or are you saying you want a further package nailed onto Phase Two, of infantry tactics taught by Infanteers??
How about ranges? taught on a course but learnt from book??? whats the problem with that.
Yes we have problems But what are YOU as a member of the Corps doing about it?
Corps Pride comes from the people within, showing our good points and fixing our bad ones.

Have also been on tour and as yet have never seen a RLC soldier who cant do his job and have seen quite a few who can turn there hand very sucessfully to other jobs as well.
 
#3
Stacker, i think some of your views maybe due to unfortunate Units you have been posted to. But i question what type of Infantry training you have been given, pre-deployment, that wasnt of the correct sort?
Im sure Bottleofsmoke can confirm that the training given on OPTAG, is from experienced soldiers?
If your Unit decides to hold "in-house" training, then its up to SNCO's and Officers to ensure correct training is given. But i do agree that certain people can get carried away and become Gunny Highways "this is a AK47, the preferred weapon of your enemy"!! :cry:
 
#4
I don't doubt some of us do but it seemed the majority of coffins I saluted in Afghanistan contained the bodies of the infantry, I rarely hear of of the RLC going toe to toe with the Taliban
I am not saying that we are training to go toe to toe with anybody, what i am saying, is that to enable the bayonets to go have a fight then they need capable Log support with them.

Now while we are "supporting" them i would not wish for myself or any member of my Sect/Troop/Sqn to be either a passenger or baggage for that fighting unit to give up assets to defend us. So if the fight comes your way you should be capable enough to deal with it.

I personally would like to have the confidence in my own skills / drills and tactical knowledge to be able to look after my blokes and myself in any situation. Maybe then you might fight the reaction to run around like the headless chicken you mentioned.
 
#5
I agree with you, Stacker, but certain members of our Corps do have aspirations of being the next author of warry stories, whereas others are quite content to do the job that they get paid for, and some just love pie-eating comps and sitting on their collective arrses doing feck all. I must admit I got downgraded for 2 yrs due to a major set of fractures, but soon reached the level of fitness required to do the job again and never really considered myself to be a steely eyed killer either, but took an interest in the soldiering side as well as trade.
 
#6
MSI64 said:
As most of the basic soldiering is done at Phase One and taught by RLC soldiers, I am curious who you want teaching our Soldiers??? Or are you saying you want a further package nailed onto Phase Two, of infantry tactics taught by Infanteers??
How about ranges? taught on a course but learnt from book??? whats the problem with that.
Yes we have problems But what are YOU as a member of the Corps doing about it?
Corps Pride comes from the people within, showing our good points and fixing our bad ones.

Have also been on tour and as yet have never seen a RLC soldier who cant do his job and have seen quite a few who can turn there hand very sucessfully to other jobs as well.
Right lets think about what happens on a practise section attack (with blanks) in the RLC. 1 cpl 1 L/cpl 6 toms pepper pot to the target,(normally if someone important is watching we have have someone behind us "Guiding us") we get to the target, kill the enemy, get in all round defence, do a mag/casualty check then its move out. Great except in real life things don't go according to plan what happens if the section commander goes down? is he dead? injured? fallen over and knocked himself out? does the 2i/c continue the attack does he go to the aid of the commander? are the enemy stronger than you expected? none of these questions are ever addressed because we just do the basic and go home.
Ive seen lads getting bollocked for not knowing the 4 markmanship principles word for word and yet come range time they are the ones hitting the targets, all the ones the can parrot phrases of the top of their heads we are sat around for hours waiting for them to reshoot.
To answer your questions I wouldn't mind see infantry teach RLC soldiers infantry skills in Basic training at least recruits would know that the intructors have done it for real
Ranges I don't see a problem with an APWT (with SA80)is fairly gerneric within the army.
You ask what I do, Well I try my hardest to look after the good lads that come from training, the ones that are always on exercise, always on guard, always doing PT. However when they want to sign off because they are doing all the work where as other lazy gits can't do it because they are a biff/single mother/muslim/unfit to carry weapons and i have seniors/officers who don't care because they are not man enough to weed this tossers out, I find it hard to encourage them not to sign off as I don't have the answers to why its like that. (And if anyone knows the answer feel free to say)
You are right about showing our good points ( I fully aknowledge there are some great loggies but there are 20000 of us and we should do better) and fixing our bad, However no-one ever seems to fix our bad points we just seem to leave them.
Where you said you have yet to see a loggie who couldn't do his job I have been on tour where suppliers can't even drive a landrover because they were not converted before they deployed, My regiment were running Jcab courses in herrick because they didn't bother training anyone before they left.
 
#7
But that sort of last minute training is done by all arms and not just ours. Bear in mind, the Infantry soldiers job is to do Infantry type stuff. The job of a PetOp, Supplier, AT etc is to PetOp, Supplier, AT. But on top of that he has to do those inf type things on Ex/BCamps to enable him to do his soldiering bit. Now you stated the text book Sect Attack, well believe me, the basic Infantry soldier, in training, will do the exact same training. In his Unit and Cadres he will improve and "spice" up those drills. We dont have the need or the time to do that, thats what the Infantry are there for, but at least carrying out the text book basics, we can do the minimum required...ie keep us alive??
Time/Money/Troop Availability nowadays stop us doing anything other than text book training, unless you are deploying, but even then why try and make us into Infantry when there is no need.
 
#8
CH512O said:
Stacker, i think some of your views maybe due to unfortunate Units you have been posted to. But i question what type of Infantry training you have been given, pre-deployment, that wasnt of the correct sort?
Im sure Bottleofsmoke can confirm that the training given on OPTAG, is from experienced soldiers?
If your Unit decides to hold "in-house" training, then its up to SNCO's and Officers to ensure correct training is given. But i do agree that certain people can get carried away and become Gunny Highways "this is a AK47, the preferred weapon of your enemy"!! :cry:
The optag training I got from the infantry was spot on. but it is limited due to time contraint. However before we went there I bought some belt webbing (as the RLC seem to think we only need 3 pouches maximum) I spoke to some infantry lads for some advice the said get 2 magazine pouches because you carry a shit load of rounds. So I and a few other lads duly bought some. Some of our war expert officers/Sncos sneered at us for having two mag pouches and for having belt rig when chest rig is so much better (I know for drivers it is better) Anyway on one of the lecture stands is a bootie who promptly says belt rig is the way forwards and make sure you have 2 mag pouches, There was a deafening silence from our lot, no-one told this bootie that he is obviously talking out of his arse that the RLC knows best.
As for the sickies/fat slobs they didn't actually do much if anything physical on the training. So why was I crawling through the mud while they were stood around having a chat were the Taliban going to accept their sick chits and just fight the fit soldiers?
saintstone said:
I agree with you, Stacker, but certain members of our Corps do have aspirations of being the next author of warry stories, whereas others are quite content to do the job that they get paid for, and some just love pie-eating comps and sitting on their collective arrses doing feck all. I must admit I got downgraded for 2 yrs due to a major set of fractures, but soon reached the level of fitness required to do the job again and never really considered myself to be a steely eyed killer either, but took an interest in the soldiering side as well as trade.
I was downgraded for 3 years in that time I had to go to Lt-col to get permission to deploy to Oman and telic one what really use to piss me off was trying to get physio appointment only to find he was fully booked with people who make Rik waller look thin. Why does the RLC keep them? Why does the RLC premote them? Why can a fit person fail an MPC/MPCA course for not doing a physical activity right yet the biff doesnt have to do it at all? I know people who have geniune injuries and I do think allowances should made and that they should be looked after but lets be fair there are far more useless biffs than geniune cases. Its great having to deal with a tom who been Agaied because his shorts are to long and the person who agaied him hasn't seen his toes since he was a recruit.

CH512O said:
But that sort of last minute training is done by all arms and not just ours. Bear in mind, the Infantry soldiers job is to do Infantry type stuff. The job of a PetOp, Supplier, AT etc is to PetOp, Supplier, AT. But on top of that he has to do those inf type things on Ex/BCamps to enable him to do his soldiering bit. Now you stated the text book Sect Attack, well believe me, the basic Infantry soldier, in training, will do the exact same training. In his Unit and Cadres he will improve and "spice" up those drills. We dont have the need or the time to do that, thats what the Infantry are there for, but at least carrying out the text book basics, we can do the minimum required...ie keep us alive??
Time/Money/Troop Availability nowadays stop us doing anything other than text book training, unless you are deploying, but even then why try and make us into Infantry when there is no need.
I've been on more than a few RLC infantry style exercises and we have had more than enough time to practise the correct drills we don't because the people instructing don't know them. so we just waste our time? Its not the minimum it just the wrong info. Why are we still taught to shout en guarde when we do bayonet practise? If i had the misfortune to have to stick a blade in someone I wont be saying anything because I don't want to attract his or his mates attention if anything I going to try and stab him in the back. We do it because thats how it is in the book.
As I said earlier some of my guys couldn't carry out their trade properly because we are to busy getting ticks in boxes.
I don't want to be infantry that was one of my points although the correct basics wouldn't go amiss . To many people think they are the next David Stirling and spout bullshit to young lads that about the correct procedure. Hardly instilled pride in the corps does it?. The lads look around and think fuck this I'm signing off.
 
#9
saintstone said:
I agree with you, Stacker, but certain members of our Corps do have aspirations of being the next author of warry stories, whereas others are quite content to do the job that they get paid for, and some just love pie-eating comps and sitting on their collective arrses doing feck all. I must admit I got downgraded for 2 yrs due to a major set of fractures, but soon reached the level of fitness required to do the job again and never really considered myself to be a steely eyed killer either, but took an interest in the soldiering side as well as trade.
I was downgraded for 3 years in that time I had to go to Lt-col to get permission to deploy to Oman and telic one what really use to urine me off was trying to get physio appointment only to find he was fully booked with people who make Rik waller look thin. Why does the RLC keep them? Why does the RLC premote them? Why can a fit person fail an MPC/MPCA course for not doing a physical activity right yet the biff doesnt have to do it at all? I know people who have geniune injuries and I do think allowances should made and that they should be looked after but lets be fair there are far more useless biffs than geniune cases. Its great having to deal with a tom who been Agaied because his shorts are to long and the person who agaied him hasn't seen his toes since he was a recruit.[/quote]

I had to ask to be upgraded as I was pissed off with the fact that I had missed out on 2 yrs promotion. I had chefs who worked with me who got promoted only because they knew the trade and not on the fitness side as it was covered over by bosses, but when it came to field exercises, I got jiffed all the time and was encouraged by the guys to take an interest in the jobs they done, eg Engineers, REME etc, hence the interest in the greener side of life.
 
#10
Im guessing your a JNCO, if you are then i commend you for your pro-active attitude etc. Maybe higher up in the food chain you get, you can have a hand in improving things that are wrong, like you say.
 
#11
CH512O said:
Im guessing your a JNCO, if you are then i commend you for your pro-active attitude etc. Maybe higher up in the food chain you get, you can have a hand in improving things that are wrong, like you say.
I was only a private, am out now, but I used to volunteer for stuff and try to get others interested.
 
#12
Saintstone, sorry mate i was replying to Stacker. :wink:
 
#14
I don't want to be infantry that was one of my points although the correct basics wouldn't go amiss . To many people think they are the next David Stirling and spout bullshit to young lads that about the correct procedure. Hardly instilled pride in the corps does it?. The lads look around and think **** this I'm signing off.
You might not want to be infantry, however you are a soldier first, if you know the basics being taught are wrong, then take your section to one side and instrust them in the correct manner. Maybe the blokes that you see as wanting to be David Stirling are actually doing this? Maybe they are doing what all good NCO's do and coach, encourage and correct?

Lets face it, blokes will come to a lot more harm by not knowing correct battle skills and drills when they need them, than suffering the inconvenience of having to learn to drive a JCB on tour.

It seems to me that you have a chip on your shoulder about your unit because your vision of the RLC is certainly not mine!
 
#15
best_dressed said:
[
You might not want to be infantry, however you are a soldier first, if you know the basics being taught are wrong, then take your section to one side and instrust them in the correct manner. Maybe the blokes that you see as wanting to be David Stirling are actually doing this? Maybe they are doing what all good NCO's do and coach, encourage and correct?

Lets face it, blokes will come to a lot more harm by not knowing correct battle skills and drills when they need them, than suffering the inconvenience of having to learn to drive a JCB on tour.

It seems to me that you have a chip on your shoulder about your unit because your vision of the RLC is certainly not mine!
Soldier first is just something that gets said to make the RLC seem warry I'm amazed at the amount of loggies who don't tell infantry that the RLC are soldiers first possibly because the infantry would chin them.
As I said before we are not getting taught correctly we get told one thing then someone else gives us a lesson and in completly contridicts what the first bloke said, the majority of skills and drills we learn are toss. How many instructors in the RLC have battle experiance? Hardly soldier first is it?
As for instructing my section A: I have limited knowledge gained from when I have been attached to the infantry so I could be wrong in doing so I rather the expert taught us and B: You don't get a chance we are to busy practising our faultless infantry skills.


As for the Jcab I never said any thing about it being an inconvenience to us might have been an in convienience to units who wanted their store though. its a part of our job that we should have done long before we deployed. We were restricted in our work because we were not trained.
Do you think its right that some RLC (stores)couldn't drive a landrover and yet deployed? (and yes it was part of their job)
Do you think its right that a sqn of 160 can only deploy 75 on a 100% exercise?
Do you think its right sick chits exempt you part of the promotional courses?
Do you think it right that officers turn a blind eye to the workshy tossers on the shop floor and let the decent toms shoulder the burden.(who sign off at the first chance)

I have been to several units and some are better than others but they are all mainly getting worse, Nothing to do with a chip on my shoulder, I've met officers I would defend to the death as well as a great many senior ranks I would gladly buy a beer for and toms who better than me sadly their numbers are getting fewer.
Corps pride? Not at the moment
If your vision if different than mine I wish I was at your unit.
 
#16
I think that part of the problem is that the indiviual Corps that make up the RLC have pride in their own trades, but not as a complete Corps. 15 yrs together and they still can't act as one, it is pretty pathetic. I got out in 94, 2 yrs after amalgamation, and it seems the individual Corps have still got a chip on their shoulders as to who is the best, when most of those serving now joined the RLC, not RCT, ACC, RPC and RAOC. One Corps, One Capbadge and therefore it should follow, One Spirit.
 
#17
Some basic misconceptions on this thread:

Being a soldier does not mean you have to be an infantryman.

"All infantrymen are super fit trained killers!" Try walking round an infantry barracks with your eyes open, they have their fair share of lardies and sickies as well.

"Infantry are all well trained in war fighting"- again not true, they spend a long time at OPTAG getting up to speed for deployment.

"No-one in RLC is trained to teach basic infantry skills." Every Tp Comd out of RMAS has a sound understanding of infantry soldiering and should ensure their NCOs pass on the right and appropriate training. If they don't know the specific drill - get out a pamphlet.

"The Chain of Command isn't robust enough with wasters" - well that is true, but the dice are heavily loaded against the conscientious few. You try reasoning with the civilian doctor and senior officers trying to achieve retention figures at any cost.
 
B

Bottleosmoke

Guest
#18
CH512O said:
Stacker, i think some of your views maybe due to unfortunate Units you have been posted to. But i question what type of Infantry training you have been given, pre-deployment, that wasnt of the correct sort?
Im sure Bottleofsmoke can confirm that the training given on OPTAG, is from experienced soldiers?
If your Unit decides to hold "in-house" training, then its up to SNCO's and Officers to ensure correct training is given. But i do agree that certain people can get carried away and become Gunny Highways "this is a AK47, the preferred weapon of your enemy"!! :cry:
The instructors here in OPTAG are first class and come from all arms and services, including the RLC (RLC driver and pioneer); all have recent operational experience and regular recces are carried out to both theatres, in fact one TAC team is currently on a month long recce as we speak. These instructors are then augmented by SNCO's who have recently returned from theatre, these instructors are then attached to units that will deploy to the same locations that they were based in.

An OPTAG Major will liase with unit COs prior to training to assertain exactly what training is required and desired; the package is then tailored around the units needs and desires. So i would suggest that if units are getting the wrong type of PDT then it is they who are asking for the wrong type.

The only thing that can let us down is lack of equipment for training but isnt that the same as everywhere?
 
#19
Herrumph said:
Some basic misconceptions on this thread:

Being a soldier does not mean you have to be an infantryman.
So why do we get the line soldier first trade second everytime we do anything remotely infantry and at no other time. Before you say its having the basic skills? What basic skills? All the theory non of the practicle ones

Herrumph said:
"All infantrymen are super fit trained killers!" Try walking round an infantry barracks with your eyes open, they have their fair share of lardies and sickies as well.
Ive noticed. They keep transfering to us. For the sickies in the infantry how do they manage on junior/senior brecon does their sick chit exempt them like it does us?

Herrumph said:
"Infantry are all well trained in war fighting"- again not true, they spend a long time at OPTAG getting up to speed for deployment.
True but an 18 year old doing six months frontline with the infantry will probably retain a sizeable about of skill for the next time.

Herrumph said:
"No-one in RLC is trained to teach basic infantry skills." Every Tp Comd out of RMAS has a sound understanding of infantry soldiering and should ensure their NCOs pass on the right and appropriate training. If they don't know the specific drill - get out a pamphlet.
Is this a wah? Some Tp comds can't find their arse with both hands. just doing a course doesn't make you an instant expert, Thats one of the problems they tell you how it is in the book/tam and thats it. No provision for mistakes is ever made, no alternative plans. Infact not to disimilar from the training cadets do

Herrumph said:
"The Chain of Command isn't robust enough with wasters" - well that is true, but the dice are heavily loaded against the conscientious few. You try reasoning with the civilian doctor and senior officers trying to achieve retention figures at any cost.
No argument there but is this the way to have corps pride?

This aim of this thread was because Horridlittleman asked someone else if they have no corps pride why stay in the RLC in the deepcut to close thread. I am pointing out why there is so little (if any)pride, I realise the original name of the thread was infantry vs RLC was totally bollocks and have now changed it.

To bottleofsmoke this wasn't supposed to be about just optag training I did say earlier that the training I got was spot on, but I will say I don't think I saw any RLC driver intructors when doing live firing top cover the people in the cab with us were infantry. (this was at thetford) I also said earlier one of of my best instructor was an pioneer RSM.
What the OPTAG Major recommends and what happens are to different things.
 
#20
stacker1 said:
but I will say I don't think I saw any RLC driver intructors when doing live firing top cover the people in the cab with us were infantry. (this was at thetford)
I think this will depend on what training your doing (I stand by to be corrected) If it's OPTAG then the staff are drawn from across arange of units. If it's unit/formation etc then it maye be down to what the unit can put together. Having been on the range team for a Op Herrick range package, for one of my Regts sub units, all the RCO and safety were Corps. I ran the top cover shoot, based on personnel experience and with input from the civvy range warden, managed to turn a rather boring, lets drive around really slow shooting at targets - to IED amubush and cas extraction. However without the 'basic skills' it would have been a cluster and dangerous.

The second instance I'll refer to is the use of the GPMG Pintle mount, first used on Telic 5. Not an Infantry man in sight to instruct our blokes, just RLC. This included taking into account the cone of fire, implications of not being zeroed, contolling the weapon, even the use of the vehilce as a fire base once out of the killing area.

You may fnid the lack of RLC (and possible other Corps) in the packages is down to them not being FFQ/Safety Supervisor qualified.
 
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