Riots- ATO analysis please

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by Gremlin, Aug 20, 2011.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Gremlin

    Gremlin LE Good Egg (charities)

    Take a quick gander at this and then comment please:

    BBC News - Shots 'fired at police' during riots in Birmingham

    To me whilst the grip used looks like that you'd use for a handgun, the discharge seems completely wrong; more like that of a firework except that there is no trail.
    One possibility would be a Zip gun with home (poorly) made ammo.

    Any ideas?

    I'm asking this for both personal interest, but also in a professional capacity as a journo.

    • Like Like x 1
  2. Gremlin

    Gremlin LE Good Egg (charities)

    Current thinking is that the weapon is an enhanced Airsoft pistol which the Brum police are claiming as a firearm.
  3. Maybe a blank firing pistol?
  4. Is it possible from the footage to identify what the gunman is aiming and firing at? Did local officers on the ground near to the incident confirm gunfire heard and report it at the time or has this just come to light due to CCTV footage being examined since? Just curious.
  5. Or modified starting pistol?
  6. Should not the firer have canted the weapon over whilst throwing gang signs with the other hand? Innit.
  7. Gremlin

    Gremlin LE Good Egg (charities)

    Modified possibly, but not blank I don't think. If it was a pure blank the smoke would be more dispersed rather than having a projectile path to it from what I can remember?
  8. Gremlin

    Gremlin LE Good Egg (charities)

    Good questions that I don't have the answer to. I only know what's on the released CCTV.
  9. Looks like it could be an 8mm starter bored, with home made 8 mm ammo, will kill but not too clever at anything above 10 m and does not cycle hence the manual recock.
    They are very hit and miss and really are only good for the whole gansta respect thing, but they only have to get lucky once don't they!
  10. No chance. Airsoft really doesn't work that way.
    They're either ABS plastic or cheap alloy.
    You'd lose your hand.
  11. there has been a spate of italian made starting pistols being converted into working firearms. Police are trying to get them banned.
  12. Airsoft is mainly ABS plarstik or cheap zinc like castings so that they get past the Jap regulations and US ATF regulations in that they cannot be turned into a gun.

    Could be a starting pistol, but my money is on it being what they call a gas pistol on the continent - in that the cartridge when fired goes bang and then puffs out a semi-useless cloud of CS/CN/CR particles.

    This is what you should be worried about, model rockets. There have been reported incidents of them being deliberately fired at plod wockas in the US. They can have guidance systems, carry payloads and be up to 8 or ten feet tall ............ just like a real air to ground missile.


  13. Just another post to throw in to say that idea is nigh on impossible - Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 prohibits sale, import and manufacture of 'realistic imitation firearms' (basically anything gun shaped/coloured that the public couldn't differentiate from a real firearm) unless you can avail yourself of the specific defence outlined in the same act.

    Proper airsoft retailers also set up system where you require a membership number to that they can cross reference before selling a gun to you - its the seller that gets it in the neck. You can get a 'two tone' which is classed as an 'imitation firearm' and the requirement for purchase is simply being 18. Brightly coloured springer tat (low end rubbish basically) still floats around in pound shops and the like - but the 'proper kit' so to speak is for the most part only available from established retailers with systems in place to prevent sales to people not legally entitled to.

    Thats a very rough guide to 'acquisition'. From a technical point, airsoft pistols (the firearm in question resembles a pistol so I'll stick to that category) as stated earlier are made from ABS or pot metal - so wouldn't stand up to real cartridge/round generated chamber pressures. The 'working parts' and the areas that house them are massively different - airsoft guns in general are like getting a go-kart and carefully fitting a fibreglass shell in the shape of a ferrari over it.

    Also, most airsoft pistols run on gas stored in a resevoir in the mag, in the main these gasses are either 134A or propane - there are a few models that take CO2 bulbs but still use the same 6mm spherical pellet/BB. While this is used to propel the BB and cycle the slide to mimic the action of a semi automatic hand gun the amount of recoil generated is neglible even with the upgrades that are out there. So comparing the CCTV footage again, whatever the rioter is using has far more recoil (possibly exaggerated) than any 'high end' airsoft gun I've seen.

    Looking at the smoke, airsoft guns in very cold temps do suffer from 'cool down' where an excess of gas escapes while going from liquid to gas but this happens closer to the chamber and doesn't really eject very far out the end of the gun.

    Airsoft guns produce very little noise - so in the midst of a riot I'm not sure how it was determined 11 shots being fired.

    The only thing 'airsoft' that it could be is perhaps a 'moscart' basically a 40mm shotgun style round which blasts a number of BBs out on a gas charge - there is a model of flaregun style launcher out there but again, these are only really available from proper airsoft retailers and are comparatively expensive and match all the criteria above ie plastic, no recoil, very little noise.
  14. By the time our Yoof have perfected these missiles we won't be flying helicopters they will have become UAV's, and with any luck there will be the remains of thousands of the Chav/Gangmembers alongside their misused, misfired rockets, this looks far more dangerous to the user than any handgun could be!
  15. It looked to me that they may have been Gas Blow Back (GBB) airsoft pistols. These use a reservoir in the mag to hold a propellant, normally a propane and silicon lubricant mix, to fire the BB and cycle the mechanism.

    And yes before anyone says it I do occasionally airsoft

    Edit: Just read DH24's post, doh!