Rioting in Creggan, Londonderry.

Ok, if the RoI and the UK government said " bugger off" to NI, we're left with a state that's got no critical mass. Short of descovering Saudi Arabian sized oilfields it's got not chance without being in one or tother camps.
Which is a possibility if a Referendum for unification was held on both sides of the border in accordance to the GFA. The electorate of the ROI could vote "No" even if NI voted "Yes".
 
Or if you look at it another way Nationalists 39 seats; Unionists 38 seats and you couldn't put a piece of paper between the terrorist antecedents of both SF and the DUP.
Only if you ignore the fact there are two other Unionist MLA's (1x TUV and 1x Independent) and 8 Alliance MLAs. Polling would indicate that most Alliance voters come from the Unionist community.
 
Well fckey fckey fckey me. The truth hurts some people a lot.
 
What does that have to do with the DUP?
...or associated political parties...

If someone is insisting that only one side has a "tradition" of child sexual abuse, based on the actions of a few extremists, then that works both ways. William McGrath was a political collaborator of Ian Paisley (they shared the same insane hatred of the Roman Catholic church), and apparently two of his kids were married in Paisley's church.

Allegedly, the good Reverend Doctor and DUP leader was informed of the abuse in the early 1970s, and did nothing about it...
 
My solution?
A new agreement between the UK and the ROI to give what is NI total independence from both States and to be left to sort it out for themselves. Frankly it is a lost cause now.
Nah... ROI becomes the 7th county and thus part of the UK, gets out of the EU free, no border hassles and all the cheese you can eat*.
Bonus: rip up the GFA and ‘tidy up’ the ‘loose ends’.

*there may be some obstacles to overcome to achieve this, but no more than any other ‘solution’.
 
Not necessarily. The Irish Home Rule party was the largest political party on the island of Ireland until 1918. It achieved this by Parnell using the Land League as his bandwagon. The biggest issue of resentment i.e. land ownership had largely been resolved with the final Land Act in 1903.

This coincided with the Gaelic Revival, a growing movement in reviving Irish language and culture in resistance to the Anglicisation of education.

The next logical step was political autonomy and Home Rule was by far the favoured option. Support for Republicanism was minimal.

In the meantime, Sinn Féin was a small party founded by Arthur Griffith in 1905 who in contrast, advocated a Dual Monarchy system for Ireland. It was largely sidelined during the Home Rule crisis and industrial unrest prior to the outbreak of WW1 and played no role in the Easter Rising.

Following the severity of British reprisals following the Easter Rising in addition to casualties endured by Irish regiments on the Western Front, Gallipoli and Mesopotamia, many began to question their appetite for Home Rule.

This doubt coincided with the release of Irish prisoners including one Eamonn De Valera. Exploiting this and his good fortune in evading execution, he and his followers joined the aforementioned obscure political party. Essentially it was a coup, Griffith was shoved aside and Dev took it over, rewrote its political manifesto and transformed it into a Republican party.

For the 1918 General Election, extensive and emotive canvassing linked with violence and intimidation, the Home Rule party was all but wiped out by Dev's rebranded Sinn Féin. The party adopted his policy of abstention and formed the First Dáil in Dublin in January 1919, the same day the first shots of the War of Independence were fired.

But Dev was just as quick to abandon SF when it no longer suited him and so left to form Fianna Fail when it refused to change its (his) policy of abstention.
I have been in a gaff, ( the house of a lovely lady ) where yer man Collins sat next to the sacred heart, Mary and the pope. Not a good word was to be said about Dev, if you wanted your ears spared!
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Except a majority in what became NI



2017 Westminster election:
DUP 10 seats
Sinn Fein 7 seats
Independent 1 seat

That gives SF 38% of the NI seats when I went to school



2017 MLA elections (90 seats):
DUP 28 seats
SF 27 seats
SDLP 12 seats
UUP 10 seats

So if you take SF and SDLP together (as nationalist parties) that is 43% of the seats
I presume that you understand the fallacy of equating seats won with vote share but that, probably because you're Irish, you view it as a chance worth taking and you're going to try to promulgate it anyway?
 
Except a majority in what became NI



2017 Westminster election:
DUP 10 seats
Sinn Fein 7 seats
Independent 1 seat

That gives SF 38% of the NI seats when I went to school



2017 MLA elections (90 seats):
DUP 28 seats
SF 27 seats
SDLP 12 seats
UUP 10 seats

So if you take SF and SDLP together (as nationalist parties) that is 43% of the seats
Every NI Life and Times poll has less than 30% feedback for those who wish to have a United Ireland. The last one in 2017 had it at 22% for unification.

United Ireland - Wikipedia
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
So you mean a lot of it belongs to Denmark/Norway?
During the early 1970s, British, US and often German TV crews loved footage of rioting crowds, they made their money from it. Some were National TV people, some were Freelance. The sight of a camera in a street where rioting was low key, immediately turned the rioters to 'Oscar winning standard' within minutes. I just wonder how much the Cameras in Creggan had to do with the poor girls death?
Considering their grandparents were probably members of the original DYH.
I'd say not an awful lot, camera crews being part of the street furniture here.. Anyone getting excited over a camera crew would have probably got a slap round the head and told to 'wise up'




Edit not to mention selling 'used rubber bullets' at a fiver a time
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
Considering their grandparents were probably members of the original DYH.
I'd say not an awful lot, camera crews being part of the street furniture here.. Anyone getting excited over a camera crew would have probably got a slap round the head and told to 'wise up'

Edit not to mention selling 'used rubber bullets' at a fiver a time
I was thinking of Flax St, the Ardoyne and The Bone 1970/71 You had to have seen it to believe it. I don't just make comments for effect; it was what we saw at that time!
 
I have been in a gaff, ( the house of a lovely lady ) where yer man Collins sat next to the sacred heart, Mary and the pope. Not a good word was to be said about Dev, if you wanted your ears spared!
My da hated Dev all his life. He rather liked Michael Collins, though not that Liam Neeson film about him. I think I heard him say that the IRA ambushed and killed the wrong one of the two.
 
But no justification for partition in the first place
There you go with your circularity again.

Are you suggesting that Ireland's internal borders return to the status quo ante, despite that being against the wishes of the majority?

If yes, then by inference such a position would be the same as that held by those choosing the gun over the ballot-box.
 
My solution?
A new agreement between the UK and the ROI to give what is NI total independence from both States and to be left to sort it out for themselves. Frankly it is a lost cause now.
Even if the majority in NI don't want your "recipe for peace"?

Neither the UK nor RoI should determine the democratic future of the inhabitants of NI, or perhaps the "right to self-determination" is inconvenient to your political views.
 
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Except a majority in what became NI



2017 Westminster election:
DUP 10 seats
Sinn Fein 7 seats
Independent 1 seat

That gives SF 38% of the NI seats when I went to school



2017 MLA elections (90 seats):
DUP 28 seats
SF 27 seats
SDLP 12 seats
UUP 10 seats

So if you take SF and SDLP together (as nationalist parties) that is 43% of the seats
But, as ever, the population in each seat is not equal, so such an extrapolation is unsafe. Ergo, the 43% number may be very much lower (or, indeed, higher). It would be interesting to know.
 
Very true (logically) on the SF MPs and something that SF should be called out for

But this logic is based on outsiders logic not the internal NI SF logic.

The disenfranchised argument is really more to do with MLAs
I don't understand your answer, perhaps you could elucidate?
 
...or associated political parties...

If someone is insisting that only one side has a "tradition" of child sexual abuse, based on the actions of a few extremists, then that works both ways. William McGrath was a political collaborator of Ian Paisley (they shared the same insane hatred of the Roman Catholic church), and apparently two of his kids were married in Paisley's church.

Allegedly, the good Reverend Doctor and DUP leader was informed of the abuse in the early 1970s, and did nothing about it...
Paisley had no time for McGrath. He didn't even join his Church. The article describes the outcome perfectly including the refusal of the Lodge to grant his resignation in favour of public expulsion on the confirmation of his perverse actions. He picked the wrong person to represent him in court, Desmond Boal would defend as instructed but was actually a decent man. Finucane would have been better in law. Liam Adams raped his children. Gerry Adams was raped as a child and for all we know he acted in the same way towards his own children. This is a factual situation whenabouts cover ups were endemic and from the people I know from the areas of Belfast like the Falls was a regularly practised event. Young girls were fckedu by their families especially if they were members of the ra. History is the judge people, I won't even go in to the ROI magdalene sisters and the actions of the priesthood.
 

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