RIFLES cap badge - Bugle horn?

#1
Looks more like a powder horn to me.

Am I alone in thinking this?
 
#2
The Horn itself is derived originally from the Jagdhorn or Hunting Horn of the German Jaeger Regiment's,that's why it probably look's a bit odd as it's as-ish Hun Kit :biggrin:
 
#4
It was the LI that wore the Red backing,from what i can remember from Depot i'm sure it's something to do with the Battle of Inkerman,but i am standing by to be corrected on that ! The Rifles do not wear the Red backing just the Bugle itself...
 
#5
The following is from lightinfantry.org:

The distinction of wearing a red backing to the cap badge was originally awarded as a result of the participation of the Light Company of the 46th Foot (later to become the 2nd Bn DCLI) in an attack on the Americans during the American War of Independence. On the night of 20th September 1777 the Light Companies attacked a detachment of 1,500 Americans lying in the forest at Paoli, inflicting 300 casualties, and capturing 100 at a cost of three killed. As a result of this action the Americans vowed vengeance, declaring they would give no quarter. The Light Companies in their turn sent word that they would stain the feathers in their caps red, so that others not involved would not suffer. After the war the Light Company of the 46th continued to wear red feathers and eventually permission was obtained for the whole of the Regiment to wear this distinction. With the abolition of the shako, the red feathers were represented by a piece of red cloth worn behind the cap badge. This distinction was confirmed for all battalions of the DCLI after the 1881 amalgamations, when the 32nd (Cornwall) Light Infantry and the 46th (South Devonshire) Regiment were linked to become the 1st and 2nd Battalions DCLI. However, the red feathers continued to be worn in tropical dress up to the abolition of the pith helmet during the Second World War. On the amalgamation of The Somerset Light Infantry and The Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry in 1959, the distinction was preserved in the form of red backing to the SCLI collar badge. This, though historically incorrect, had to be accepted because Dress Regulations forbade the wearing of coloured backing to the brigade cap badge unless it was worn by all members of the brigade. The brigade cap badge was adopted in 1959.
 
#6
German Bugle Horn
 
#7
Tiddle said:
The following is from lightinfantry.org:

The distinction of wearing a red backing to the cap badge was originally awarded as a result of the participation of the Light Company of the 46th Foot (later to become the 2nd Bn DCLI) in an attack on the Americans during the American War of Independence. On the night of 20th September 1777 the Light Companies attacked a detachment of 1,500 Americans lying in the forest at Paoli, inflicting 300 casualties, and capturing 100 at a cost of three killed. As a result of this action the Americans vowed vengeance, declaring they would give no quarter. The Light Companies in their turn sent word that they would stain the feathers in their caps red, so that others not involved would not suffer. After the war the Light Company of the 46th continued to wear red feathers and eventually permission was obtained for the whole of the Regiment to wear this distinction. With the abolition of the shako, the red feathers were represented by a piece of red cloth worn behind the cap badge. This distinction was confirmed for all battalions of the DCLI after the 1881 amalgamations, when the 32nd (Cornwall) Light Infantry and the 46th (South Devonshire) Regiment were linked to become the 1st and 2nd Battalions DCLI. However, the red feathers continued to be worn in tropical dress up to the abolition of the pith helmet during the Second World War. On the amalgamation of The Somerset Light Infantry and The Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry in 1959, the distinction was preserved in the form of red backing to the SCLI collar badge. This, though historically incorrect, had to be accepted because Dress Regulations forbade the wearing of coloured backing to the brigade cap badge unless it was worn by all members of the brigade. The brigade cap badge was adopted in 1959.
There you go,slightly more detailed than mine though... :smile:
 
#8
The 49th and its successors also wore what was known to them as the Brandywine Flash as a result of their participation in the same action (Paoli is just to the North of Brandywine Creek). As the red badge backing can be traced back along two of their golden threads it is surprising that the Rifles did not adopt it.
 
#9
As the red badge backing can be traced back along two of their golden threads it is surprising that the Rifles did not adopt it.
The "golden thread" idea was that each of the founding regiments got to choose one 2golden thread" which would be incorporated into the new dress. They chose;

The Croix de Guerre of the Devonshire and Dorset Light Infantry
The Silver Bugle of the Light Infantry
The Back-Badge of The Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Light Infantry
The Black Buttons of the Royal Green Jackets.

So for their "golden thread" RGBWLI chose the back badge. Nobody got to choose two. Everything else was decided/negotiated, only one golden thread each was guaranteed.

There was a red backing to the badge of the 60th (KRRC) too, so it has LI, RGJ and RGBWLI associations. I have said before that I couldn't see there being any objection to it in principle. Also given that they are introducing some red to No 1 and Mess Kit (ala the KRRC) I am mildy suprised that they didn't go for a red backing. But since RGJ, LI and RGBWLI wouldn't have objected and D&D wouldn't have carried the vote, I can only assume that nobody suggested it or that someone suggested it so forcefully that he pissed everyone else off and so they objected out of spite :lol:

Of course some golden threads chosen by one regiment have relevance to others. The LI can also claim the Croix de Guerre and RGJ can claim the Silver Bugle for example.

And ultimately it is a Rifle Regiment, so Green No 1's it was always bound to be...an RGJ thing of course.
 
#11
Yes,

I think ugly wanted this though

 
#12
Bravo_Bravo said:
Looks more like a powder horn to me.
It is the horn of a Bugle - which was a sort of large wild bull, similar to an Aurochs, found in the Spanish peninsular but now extinct. Hunting horns and powder horns were both made from its horn; the hunting horns gave rise to the name of the musical instrument.

So the representation on The Rifles cap badge is of a hunting horn made from a Bugle horn.

are most blokes happy with the new cap badge?
Hell yes.

Bit of a gap in the middle though. Needs a bit of colour. Fancy a bit of Rifle Brigade red trim myself.... :thumleft:
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
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#13
Paoli said:
Bravo_Bravo said:
Bit of a gap in the middle though. Needs a bit of colour. Fancy a bit of Rifle Brigade red trim myself.... :thumleft:
Maybe you can pick it up on the next round of cuts,....ooops sorry, restructuring, in a couple of years time.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#14
GwaiLo said:
Yes,

I think ugly wanted this though

Oi too many letters in there!
Tiddles is spot on regarding Paoli so yes its a pity but the LI didnt get the badge now did they as that was not anyones badge! The Bugle was always the centre piece to the war memorial hence the halfa digs at the depot!
As it was a DCLI honour and that carried through to SCLI and the the LI as a whole the other Bns werent in favour of it. We in the pre options for change 1LI even put the red felt behind the belt buckle badge as the red plastic backing was pants. When 1LI was subsumed into 2 Li and renumbered they removed the red backing from Bn signs, I think they also stopped wearing it in the field and started using J instead of G in Sgt which was a KOYLI and 2LI thing!
Still those days are gone for good now so the only thing is to have a piss up. As soon as I gets me a new job I'll be in there aving it!

And ultimately it is a Rifle Regiment, so Green No 1's it was always bound to be...an RGJ thing of course
Always were the same in the LI complete with ballet trs for the ruperts!
 
#15
Always were the same in the LI complete with ballet trs for the ruperts!
Of course. Don't know why I thought otherwise, I can remember seeing attached 'arfur's doing Orderly Officer wearing them now that you mention it.
 
#17
New cap badge works fine. It's simple and distinctive and there is no way a regiment called the Rifles should have anything other than a Bugle horn for its badge.

That said, I don't think the crown adds anything. I much prefer the corded version of many of the preceding LI regiments. Almost every other regiment and corps seems to have a crown on their badge so it's hardly unique. I know that we are a 'royal' regiment and all, but we haven't carried the royal title into our nomenclature so why place the crown on the cap badge?

I don't want to kick off the whole Paoli/Brandywine red backing issue again, but I do think on purely aesthetic grounds that the red helps the bugle horn stand out and be bold. The official line as to why the red backing wasn't adopted was that no 'battle honours' were to be worn on a rifleman's working dress, though technically Paoli was never a battle honour since it took place during the American War of Revolution. As that war was so ignominously lost, no battle honours were awarded.
 
#19
Well the RGBW and RGJ were both royal. The RGBW inherited the designation from the DERR, who inherited it from the Royal Berkshires who earnt it at the Battle of Tofrek back in 1885. So there is clearly a precedent that it can be passed from one regiment to the next.

That said, the Rifles decided against carrying the designation in their title. It was thought that the 'Royal Rifles Regiment' was a bit unwieldy a handle and would leave the new regiment open to ridicule (think welease Wodewick jokes).

There is also the precedent of being royal and electing not to bear the title, which was the case with the Light Infantry. My understanding is that that is also the case with Rifles, i.e. Royal but not in name.

I guess the final authority is the Queen, but it seems I have mislaid her number.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#20
Light Infantry as a rule werent Royal regiments, the Honour Light Infantry being bestowed by a gratefull sovreign. many regiments earned additional honours, mottoes and traditions as a result of their faithfulness etc the not taking the loyal toast for one but none came across as Royal in my research, the closest could be Prince Alberts The Somerset LI and the Duke Of Cornwall LI but neither were sovreigns so shouldnt really be royal. Any way unless the Rifles becomes Royal or it was granted in its charter it is just The Rifles a new regiment!
 

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