RGN?

#1
Ok, just want to start this off by saying that I'm just posing a question, I'm not trying to piss in anyone's chips!

Should Mental Health Nurses be called Nurses? I understand that it is a useful and much needed profession, but are they actually nurses? If you had to define nursing, would mental health fit the bill?

Now, I hold my hand up and say that I know more about Adult Nursing than paediatrics and Mental health, so I'm ready to be proved wrong!

T C
 
#3
jarrod248 said:
Why not leave that to the NMC. It would seem to me that someone that completes a Diploma or a Degree in Mental health Nursing and are registered with the NMC then they are Nurses or are you stupid?
I am an RMN and do not make such stupid generalisations of my RGN colleagues.
woah! Not making generalisations pal, it was just a question. I know you all have NMC registrations and yes you do care for people so in that sense of course you are nurses. But, there are other medical degree courses and diploma's that you can do that don't make you a nurse, and still care for patients. Would an ITU/CCU Physio not come under this?

Again, just to clarify, I'm not trying to take the piss!!

T C
 
#4
Right, I'm actually a CMT (so fairly neutral!). I was just trying to see what members thought. I understand and appreciate the great work done by mental health nurses, I was just thinking along the lines that the psychiatrists I've met have introduced themselves as just that, where as the mental health nurses I've met just stuck with 'Nurse'.

I understand that I have met a minority of mental health nurses, it's just that the encounter got me thinking.

I felt that as roles are very different, why not have more of a distinction in the names?

T C

Edit to remove stupidity!
 
#6
Ah, well I didn't know that! I guess what I was trying to ask was "Is there enough or does there need to be more of a distinction between RGN and RMN?"

T C
 
#7
In my opinion nurses don't 'Nurse' at all any more, they're in the majority self important, brainwashed self aggrandiosing heroins on the front line of Death and Disease. They're shoite, nurses now leave the basics of nursing to HCAs, they do feck all except eat chocolate and bleat about their PQs or how something might affect their PQs. In short they so believe their own hype and are so desperate to close the gap between themselves and DRs that they have long forgotten their basics.

Note to nurses a 'Care Plan' and the ability to eat a box of 'Roses' does not entitle you to respect.
 
#9
Dental nurses are registered with the General Dental Council (cumpulsory from June 2008) and I doubt you would ever find one who called themselves a "nurse" rather than a dental nurse.

On another note, why when I tell people I'm a dentist do they say "dental nurse?". Look in the car park fcuk nuts.
 
#10
Perhaps we should have a sticky thread entitled "I hate Doctors/Nurses/CMTs/MAOs/BMSs/Physios/etc* because..."

*delete as appropriate

For those who have clearly got a lot of issues.

On the original point, I can't see why the difference between General and MH nurses should cause much confusion. Consider a Psychiatrist and Orthopaedic Surgeon. They're both doctors but their actual jobs (and to a large extent their training) are totally different.
 
#11
I didn't think it was an unreasonable question. I can't quite understand why Jarrod adopted such a defensive posture and attacked him for asking a simple question which was likely to provoke a healthy debate in the long run. Hardly paints the nursing profession in a decent light.

Anyway, a quick scan of the dictionary gives nurse a definition of: 'a person trained to care for the sick or infirm'. Pretty straightforward really and applying that description, it would be easy to see why Mental Health Nurses are described as such. What TC has probably seen more of is CPNs whose role is somewhat different than perhaps a junior ward-based nurse who fits perhaps the more traditional image of a nurse.

As for nurses who don't nurse anymore, you only have to read the press to see that this is a wider concern. Minette Marin of the Telegraph has a huge axe to grind regarding the role of the modern-day nurse and laments the passing of the Victorian style of nursing. She might have a point, certainly when it comes to issues of infection control for example.

As for Letterwritingman's comment all I can say is: :roll:
 
#12
No worries! Here's a typically acerbic comment from Minette Marin:

In these three hospitals it seems some nurses and doctors were not afraid to skip washing their hands, not afraid to tell patients to relieve themselves in their beds, not afraid of prescribing antibiotics without proper care. Managers were not afraid to ignore or fib about infections, to overlook evidence and to pull the wool over the eyes of their nonexecutive board members. Nonexecutives were not fearful enough of such possibilities, nor anxious enough for their reputations, to seek them out. Even after this emerged, managers were not scared of giving the chief executive a glowing reference and a huge pay-off.

All these people ought to have been afraid. But they weren’t, because there are few unpleasant consequences these days of doing one’s job badly. Except in the commercial sector, criticising people’s efforts is frowned on and it’s extremely difficult to dismiss them; the fear of being sacked for incompetence is a thing of the long-distant past in the state sector.

I imagine that’s why nurses often look so slaggy, with untidy hair falling over their faces, wearing hospital clothes in the street. Women doctors’ hair is often just as unhygienic and unprofessional and consultants of both sexes are notoriously bad about washing their hands.

High standards, like hygiene, are a state of mind – a kind of anxious professional perfectionism which insists on doing things well, whether it’s sweeping a room, washing a commode or tying one’s hair back neatly. I know that nurses are often too busy to keep up standards, but I also know that all too often they don’t care about them anyway.

The culture of fear, in which matron would insist on spotless fingernails, perfectly made beds and every hair in place, disappeared long ago, along with a sense of authority and hierarchy in the wards. The same is true in schools and in public places and institutions generally.

The kind of fear that I mean goes with unpleasant things such as blame, guilt and even punishment. It can be repressive. I used to think it was a good thing that the cultural pendulum had swung against an excess of this kind of fear. But now I think it has swung too far. True professionalism and true accountability mean fear, as well as pride and pleasure in doing well.


Although I'm not a big fan of Ms Marin I can't help but feel she has a point. Although it's been a while since I set foot in a hospital, I do remember getting seriously hacked off at the poor standards set by clinical personnel. I remember having to grip a Cpl RGN outside Frimley Park who was smoking a cigarette in full uniform! Shopping in supermarkets, on a bus, the list is endless. I don't get it, why would you want to go shopping in a supermarket in uniform after handling patients with infections all day? Bizarre.

Minette Marin
 
#13
Just wanted to chuck another handgrenade into this one.

I'm a dual-qualified RGN/RMN. I did RGN first ('89 - '92).

As I see healthcare, physical and mental health are indivisible. All physical care patients have mental health needs to some degree or other and vice versa.

Why, therefore, has more recent nurse trg abandon exposure to other disciplines. On my RGN I did 8 weeks on an acute psychiatric ward, with 2 weeks in college before and 2 after. Now 12 weeks didn't make me an RMN, but it gave me a helluva better insight into mental health than current Adult Branch graduates, who get (literally, in the case of the institution here I did my RMN) 3 days.

Similarly, with GP Trg, 6 months in psychiatry used to be a given, whereas now it's something they can opt into (or, more often, not). Yet in Primary Care a large percentage, maybe even a majority, of punters have got significant mental health needs.

Going back to the original poster, a CMT, you bet that RMNs are nurses, but wouldn't we and our physical care/sick kids/learnind disabilities/midwifery colleagues be far better able to deliver TRULY holistic care if we understood the whole range of a patient's needs, rather than allowing ourselves to be stovepiped into a narrow clinical area?

KC
 
#14
KhakiCrab said:
wouldn't we and our physical care/sick kids/learnind disabilities/midwifery colleagues be far better able to deliver TRULY holistic care if we understood the whole range of a patient's needs, rather than allowing ourselves to be stovepiped into a narrow clinical area?
Fair point there, but you'd have to be careful you didn't stray into 'Jack of all trades, master of none' territory.

WRT the post about hand washing etc I couldn't agree more. A good friend of mine is a CCU nurse and we were talking about MRSA/C-Dif and infection control. The unit he works in has it's own infection control nurse (which is a good idea I think) who comes out with some real great ideas :roll:

-PT's catheter leaks urine when the PT's given physio (roughly, not sure if it's a leak, but it ends up getting on the bed etc). Infection control nurse tells my mate not to worry that the PT is now in a small pool of urine because 'Urine's sterile sweety!'.

This nurse also sits on the floor in the 'staff room' to eat lunch, wears the same apron between PT's and doesn't use gloves when changing IV's... And this is CCU where 90% of PT's are on a Vent+Filter and Imuno-Compromised.

Now, this isn't a dig against nurses, more an observation that even a Trust's best efforts can be spoiled by having a total chopper in a useful post!

T C

BTW- My question from the orriginal post have pretty much been answered, so it's no dramas (IMO) if this becomes a bad drills/Infection control thread.
 
#15
The_Cheat said:
Should Mental Health Nurses be called Nurses? I understand that it is a useful and much needed profession, but are they actually nurses? If you had to define nursing, would mental health fit the bill?

Now, I hold my hand up and say that I know more about Adult Nursing than paediatrics and Mental health, so I'm ready to be proved wrong!

T C
Not exactly a comprehensive definition, but, always, worth bearing in mind is this statement:

“The unique function of the nurse is to assist the individual sick or well, in the performance of those activities contributing to health or its recovery (or to a peaceful death) that he would perform unaided if he had the
necessary strength, will or knowledge and to do this in such a way as to
help him gain independence as rapidly as possible”.(Virginia Henderson).


I was an RMN, for around 20 years, and see no reason that Mental Health Nurses would not match the criteria. I know that very little of any nurse's daily workload is now actually "nursing", but my experience was that Mental Health Nurses had to make many difficult decisions without the support of medical staff.
 
#16
The_Cheat said:
KhakiCrab said:
wouldn't we and our physical care/sick kids/learnind disabilities/midwifery colleagues be far better able to deliver TRULY holistic care if we understood the whole range of a patient's needs, rather than allowing ourselves to be stovepiped into a narrow clinical area?
Fair point there, but you'd have to be careful you didn't stray into 'Jack of all trades, master of none' territory.
The Army needs generalist nurses, just as much as it needs specialists too.
With 20 years experience under my belt - I am extremely happy to be a 'jack of all' as you put it, its called flexibility
 
#17
Bedpan2zero said:
The_Cheat said:
KhakiCrab said:
wouldn't we and our physical care/sick kids/learnind disabilities/midwifery colleagues be far better able to deliver TRULY holistic care if we understood the whole range of a patient's needs, rather than allowing ourselves to be stovepiped into a narrow clinical area?
Fair point there, but you'd have to be careful you didn't stray into 'Jack of all trades, master of none' territory.
The Army needs generalist nurses, just as much as it needs specialists too.
With 20 years experience under my belt - I am extremely happy to be a 'jack of all' as you put it, its called flexibility
I'm not implying that it can't be done, just pointing out that there is plenty of scope for 'failure'.

A degree of overlap is essential, but how much is needed?

T C
 
#18
The ability to fit into a myriad of different situations and adapt. It is just as much about the ability of the individual to learn and do their best on the job when in an unfamiliar situation as it is about having worked in every area previously. We should expect such things of ourselves and our colleagues if we are to do our patients justice.

Did you know that it is illegal to call youself a nurse if you are not registerd with the NMC? It is a protected term. Dental/vetinary/nursery nurses have to prefix the word nurse with their particular speciality.
 
#19
primroseandblue said:
The ability to fit into a myriad of different situations and adapt. It is just as much about the ability of the individual to learn and do their best on the job when in an unfamiliar situation as it is about having worked in every area previously. We should expect such things of ourselves and our colleagues if we are to do our patients justice.

Did you know that it is illegal to call youself a nurse if you are not registerd with the NMC? It is a protected term. Dental/vetinary/nursery nurses have to prefix the word nurse with their particular speciality.
You sure that's true?

What legislation says that?

I know it's true for doctors (the Medicine Act) and police, but I'd never heard it for nurses.

I'd be happy to be corrected, but I don't think you are correct.

FF.
 
#20
Friendly_Fire said:
primroseandblue said:
The ability to fit into a myriad of different situations and adapt. It is just as much about the ability of the individual to learn and do their best on the job when in an unfamiliar situation as it is about having worked in every area previously. We should expect such things of ourselves and our colleagues if we are to do our patients justice.

Did you know that it is illegal to call youself a nurse if you are not registerd with the NMC? It is a protected term. Dental/vetinary/nursery nurses have to prefix the word nurse with their particular speciality.
You sure that's true?

What legislation says that?

I know it's true for doctors (the Medicine Act) and police, but I'd never heard it for nurses.

I'd be happy to be corrected, but I don't think you are correct.

FF.
Not sure it is illegal to say that you are a doctor or a nurse. It is however illegal to work as one, gain employment claiming to be one, make cash from claiming to be one, etc. unless you actually hold a professional qualification, as both are regulated by statutory bodies i.e. GMC and NMC that require accredited training and registration.
 

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