Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

RFA Support Vessels

Is English not your first language?

You assume a wiki number is "waste" - as opposed to a conflation of two contracts. Or legit changes.

You also miss the point that the report might just torpedo some currently cherished policy assumptions of senior people by outlining just how far off the pace what's left of our yards are.
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Is English not your first language?

You assume a wiki number is "waste" - as opposed to a conflation of two contracts. Or legit changes.

You also miss the point that the report might just torpedo some currently cherished policy assumptions of senior people by outlining just how far off the pace what's left of our yards are.

It is my mandarin which is lacking...

I didn't....

Well not before the MoD refused a legimitate request from Parliament's oversight committee.

If the latter then you'd think a department committed to improving our strategic position in the world would be keen to highlight the fact.

Basically what you are saying is that the MoD is neither accountable for past projects, nor for future policies.

Which sums up the problem with the MoD rather nicely.
 
Then how did a fixed price contract for £452m turn into £550m? Has never been adequately explained that I've seen.

As taxpayers we have a right to know how our money is spent, and how well.

I seem to recall the minister responsible claiming in Parliament that they were built abroad due to the bid being lower, yet other sources state that no bids were received from domestic yards.

There is something murky here.
VAT ?
 
Then how did a fixed price contract for £452m turn into £550m? Has never been adequately explained that I've seen.

As taxpayers we have a right to know how our money is spent, and how well.

I seem to recall the minister responsible claiming in Parliament that they were built abroad due to the bid being lower, yet other sources state that no bids were received from domestic yards.

There is something murky here.
Weirdly the report I've read from the infrastructure and projects authority stated the original budget at main gate in 2011 was 774 million. This then went to 595 million as the final budget. Then the final spend was 551 million.

And the same report included quite a few lessons learnt so hardly burrying the bad news.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
 
That is the cherished aspiration of some. Whether the actual capacity and capability is there to do so is a very different thing. If we develop additional capability and capacity to build these ships (in a very short timeframe), what does it do thereafter?

That's what people haven't quite twigged yet. We're currently building around 1500te of ship per annum in Govan. When T31 comes on stream and assuming T26 ships 4-8 go ahead, we'll be building ~5500 te per annum across Govan and Rosyth. Three FSS will constitute an additional ~ 90000te over seven years - 13000te pa. For the sake or argument, assume it's built at Rosyth directly after T31 (assuming no slippage), thereby hoovering up the 4000te pa of capacity that Rosyth will have released from T31.

When it winds down, what does that extra 9000te of annual capacity do? It won't be commercial shipbuilding and there isn't enough military shipbuilding in the NSBS programme to cover it, despite the fondest hopes about hospital ships and raiding DfID budgets. T4X and whatever MHC turns into (assuming it isn't just autonomy) is it. Possibly Littoral Strike ships (they'd be better off as conversions). Probably 5-6000te pa at best, which is pretty much what Govan and Rosyth can deliver.

Which means that somewhere the majority of that 14000te of newly generated shipbuilding capacity & capability will be looking at a P45. Unless someone comes up with an enhanced naval budget to crew and operate significantly more ships, that is inevitable.

ETA : Note that the sensible way out of this would be to have some of the simpler parts of the ship fabricated as a large block (cheaply) offshore. However, the clamour to have it all in UK is going to constrain this option, with the consequences described above.
 
Last edited:

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Yes... 14k tonnes of unused capacity.

Quite a problem.

Meanwhile in 2018 Gemany built 478,000 tonnes
Italy 477,000
France 360,000
and Spain 207,000.
 

endure

GCM
I noticed this from the article;

"The definition of warship used by the Government had been previously challenged by people from all sides of the political spectrum. For perspective, according to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea article 29:

“For the purposes of this Convention, “warship” means a ship belonging to the armed forces of a State bearing the external marks distinguishing such ships of its nationality, under the command of an officer duly commissioned by the government of the State and whose name appears in the appropriate service list or its equivalent, and manned by a crew which is under regular armed forces discipline.”

I don't know about the discipline on board RFAs but they're not commanded by officers commissioned by the state.
 
I noticed this from the article;

"The definition of warship used by the Government had been previously challenged by people from all sides of the political spectrum. For perspective, according to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea article 29:

“For the purposes of this Convention, “warship” means a ship belonging to the armed forces of a State bearing the external marks distinguishing such ships of its nationality, under the command of an officer duly commissioned by the government of the State and whose name appears in the appropriate service list or its equivalent, and manned by a crew which is under regular armed forces discipline.”

I don't know about the discipline on board RFAs but they're not commanded by officers commissioned by the state.


My Bold & Underlined. The RFA ships ( LST's) I travelled on were all under the command of Commissioned officers, with an OR crew of Hong Kong Chinese....is this still the case?
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
South Korea, 500,000 tons. ......The biggest ship yards in the world.

South Korea 14.6 million tonnes
Japan 14.4 million tonnes
China..... 23,259,000.

14,000 tonnes rould be a rounding error for any of those three.
 

endure

GCM
My Bold & Underlined. The RFA ships ( LST's) I travelled on were all under the command of Commissioned officers, with an OR crew of Hong Kong Chinese....is this still the case?

The officers on an RFA are merchant navy not royal.

 
Yes... 14k tonnes of unused capacity.

Quite a problem.

Meanwhile in 2018 Gemany built 478,000 tonnes
Italy 477,000
France 360,000
and Spain 207,000.

Not a problem if you are competitive and there is a global shipbuilding demand. Very different if you are not as competitive, have zero recent track record and there is a shipbuilding slump. The vast majority of those build tonnages (certainly in Germany, Italy and to a degree France) are cruise ships whose owners currently have two priorities :

1. Get out of the business.
2. Get out of the business.

Their future options are already being cancelled. Should they ever decide to order new ships, they'll be going to their trusted suppliers who deliver on time, every time. Those tonnages are also gross or deadweight tonnage which are a little bit different to the lightship tonnages I described the UK capacity in.

Spain is distorted by the four Suezmax tankers built in Cadiz 2017-19.

It's not as if the private companies that buy ships are going to be running round looking for an expensive 14000te of spare capacity. Which leaves the question, what is that extra capacity going to do and who pays for it?
 
That is the cherished aspiration of some. Whether the actual capacity and capability is there to do so is a very different thing. If we develop additional capability and capacity to build these ships (in a very short timeframe), what does it do thereafter?

That's what people haven't quite twigged yet. We're currently building around 1500te of ship per annum in Govan. When T31 comes on stream and assuming T26 ships 4-8 go ahead, we'll be building ~5500 te per annum across Govan and Rosyth. Three FSS will constitute an additional ~ 90000te over seven years - 13000te pa. For the sake or argument, assume it's built at Rosyth directly after T31 (assuming no slippage), thereby hoovering up the 4000te pa of capacity that Rosyth will have released from T31.

When it winds down, what does that extra 9000te of annual capacity do? It won't be commercial shipbuilding and there isn't enough military shipbuilding in the NSBS programme to cover it, despite the fondest hopes about hospital ships and raiding DfID budgets. T4X and whatever MHC turns into (assuming it isn't just autonomy) is it. Possibly Littoral Strike ships (they'd be better off as conversions). Probably 5-6000te pa at best, which is pretty much what Govan and Rosyth can deliver.

Which means that somewhere the majority of that 14000te of newly generated shipbuilding capacity & capability will be looking at a P45. Unless someone comes up with an enhanced naval budget to crew and operate significantly more ships, that is inevitable.

ETA : Note that the sensible way out of this would be to have some of the simpler parts of the ship fabricated as a large block (cheaply) offshore. However, the clamour to have it all in UK is going to constrain this option, with the consequences described above.
Is that were the Type 31e export orders are supposed to come in?

except it is Type 26 that is winning the orders and they are being built in the customers own yards
 
Is that were the Type 31e export orders are supposed to come in?

except it is Type 26 that is winning the orders and they are being built in the customers own yards

People who believed export warship building in the UK was a realistic possibility would probably be interested in investing in the South Sea bubble........
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Is that were the Type 31e export orders are supposed to come in?

except it is Type 26 that is winning the orders and they are being built in the customers own yards

When is the last time a new 5000+ tonne frigate or destroyer was exported by anyone?

....

I can't think of any.

Design it for export they said....
 
When is the last time a new 5000+ tonne frigate or destroyer was exported by anyone?

....

I can't think of any.

Design it for export they said....
I taught the strategy was to build for export? I could be mistaken

Last time was the Leander class I think in the mid 60s
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
I taught the strategy was to build for export? I could be mistaken

Last time was the Leander class I think in the mid 60s

Strategy?

Don't use words like that, you'll confuse the MoD.
 

Latest Threads

Top