Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by MOD_Oracle, Nov 12, 2005.
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Revealed: UK Wartime Torture Camp
I dont suppose anyone in the Guardian, or any of its readers will bother to thead "the London Cage" by Lt Col AP Scotland OBE.
Located off the Bayswater Road, the centre had far more success by the use of far more subtle methods, than those alluded to in MoD oracles rendition.
By Scotland's accounts far more success was gained by treating prisoners as individuals and building relationships with them. Some accounts of the "cage " describe an environment that more closely resembles an officer's mess than a PoW camp. Some of the cages more siginficant successes were achieved over Lunch, Afternoon Tea or Dinner.
Certainly some prisoners were kept in isolation, only to condition them to speak to a friendly face when they came out of isolation. Other successful ruses were use of stool pidgeons and interrorgators in NKVD uniforms.
For the Security Service to complain that someone had been "worked on psychologically" is something I find hard to believe.
Perhaps in releasing this story someone was not aware of the tens of thousands of casualties that the U Boat and Luftwaffe prisoners' colleagues were inflicting on Merchant Seamen on the North Atlantic Convoys, and non-combatant civilians in London, Coventry, Southampton, Belfast, Liverpool...............................
To release an article such as this immediately after Armistice day and before Remeberance Sunday, either shows gross insensitivity, or a desire to provoke
Probably refering to Ham House in I believe Richmond, now the site of an open prisoner but formely a debriefing centre. I believe it's existence has been in the open for some years now and a wartime collection of interrogation reports has been published recently ..............
How about this is more a case of the Security Service damning it, becuase they were not in control of it.
I'll admit I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to this sort of thing, but sleep deprivation, stress positions and threats of violence (ignoring the 'systematically beaten' sentence for a minute) doesn't come under torture in my book.
Being threatened with execution/electric shock torture or menaced by interogators .. doesn't mean that those methods were actually applied.
And 'systematically beaten' could be taken to mean a cuff round the back of the head when instructions weren't followed, much like the clip round the ear a policeman used to give a naughty schoolboy.
Again, I claim no great knowledge, which is probably just as well.
For someone from todays Jerno fraternity, not getting a 3 course lunch at a posh London eatery at the paper's expence would be classed as a form of torture. I mean, if they are totally out of touch with the realities of life today, what possible idea can they have of the realities of life in wartime Britain?
And your knowledge of the realities of life in wartime Britain is based on what exactly?
If there was nothing wrong with this, why was it kept secret for so long?
There's nothing at all wrong with us doing nasty and possibly illegal things to others in pursuit of economic, political and military advantage. It just makes it difficult to complain about others when they do it to us.
''A subsequent assessment by MI5, the Security Service, concluded that the commanding officer had been guilty of "clear breaches" of the Geneva convention and that some interrogation methods "completely contradicted" international law.''
Pathetic,just what we need some wet blanket MI5 criticizing something that occured when the country was involved in a fight for its very survival,we seem so adapt at turning on ourselves and tearing apart the efforts of those who have protected our freedom in dire times.
I'm delighted to see that senior British officers at the time were not happy about what was going on. Torture/torturelite are not acceptable. Its a shame they did nothing about it but at least they didn't try to justify it...
Easy to comment on events past when not in their situation in our love and hug everyone society,the world in general was facing its darkest hour against an abhorrent foe who already had plans in place for death camps in this country when they secured victory,desperate times sometimes lead to desperate meausures.
yeah well it seems that thankfully not everyone there at the time agrees with you hat...
Point being is at that time they believed it to be right,hence we can comment as such.
If the choice was between having an unintercepted bomber force pulverising one's home town, or having that raid disrupted by using some unpleasant & illegal methods to gain knowledge of it, what would be other's actions?
Personally, I would be heating up the pokers & checking the electrodes.
Just look at what happened to normal people in Yugoslavia or even in New Orleans - Now matter how principled you think you are if history teaches us anything it's that it doesn't take much... even the holocaust was engineered by thousands of once 'ordinary' people. Like it or not if you wern't there you can't know. simple. Nasty, but true.
I hate to say it but iI think Oddbod is probably right.
It always concerns me that this type of justification for torture only occurs after the event. What i mean is that some people are very keen to highlight the few cases where torture has been employed successfully but seem to forget the many innocent people that are tortured before the information is gained.
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