Results are in and it is leave the EU

Discussion in 'Brexit' started by Guns, Jun 23, 2016.

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  1. Hope in hard brexit case, someone will have the comon sense and say: hey, they are british nationals, send to brussels by the british gov., why should we pay for their pensions.
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  2. Brotherton Lad

    Brotherton Lad LE Reviewer

    Have you seen the size of the WTO tariffs set on common sense?
  3. If it is someone that we sent to work in Brussels, like Peter Mandelson for example, then as much as it pains me to say it, his pension is the responsibility of the UK. On the other hand, if a British national was appointed to work for the EU by the EU itself i.e. they weren't seconded from our Civil Service etc., then the liability must lie with Brussels.
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  4. And the solution?
    That is all some time away yet in the future, pensions etc will come a long way down the list after frontier security, terrorism, customs law, reciprocal rights for VIP type people living wherever they want to and free movement/immigration.
    The mutual ending of a very nice gravy train should be well down the list of priorities I would like to hope.
  5. His employers are/were liable for the employer's contributions to his Defined Benefit pension fund (Actually it is a pot held in common for all EU officials who were on the scheme). The UK remains one of those employers up until they are no longer EU members. Normally all these contributions would have been made contemporaneously, but in a sly political scheme all the members agreed that they would withhold their contributions until a later date when funds began to be drawn down at a rate greater than the holding due to employees' contributions. They still haven't topped up the scheme so there is a hole where the nations' money should be and the UK is liable for its proportionate share of that hole accrued up until the point they leave.

    Do you think that UK should renege on this legacy debt?

    Officials are not on this scheme any more as they switched over to a Defined Contribution Scheme some years ago.
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  6. I'm not sure that I follow your post and in any case, by your argument, we would only be liable for the proportion of the pension accrued whilst the UK was a Member State. If someone has retired, fair enough, we should honour their pension, although an argument could be made to pay it at comparative CS rates as opposed to EU rates. But if someone has 15 years in and another 15 to go post-2019, then why on earth should we pick up the tab for the second half of their career?
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  7. And when that person retires, who pays the first 15 years pension? If, say, the pension after 30 years is 20 grand a year, would UK be liable for half that in 15 years time when he does retire and the EU for the other half?
    Farage, for example, has been an MEP for 18 years. Will the UK be responsible for his 20 year served pension when we leave or will it come out of the money already in the EU pension fund which UK has already paid into? Or will it be just another ongoing expense.
    Just something else to be negotiated (have the negotiations actually started yet?)
  8. Brotherton Lad

    Brotherton Lad LE Reviewer

    I think we're still recruiting the staff for the negotiations. I expect it will all come out in the wash, eventually.
  9. How many companies do you know that pay a person's pension 15 years after he left the company?

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  10. Brotherton Lad

    Brotherton Lad LE Reviewer

    The Army?
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  11. Any civilian companies (not including CS or poilce). Say you join Smith & Co, do 20 years with pension scheme, if you then join Jones & Co and do another 20 years with pension scheme, do Smith still pay up or will you have transferred your pension with you, meaning that Smith now has no liabilities as ref your pension?

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  12. Brotherton Lad

    Brotherton Lad LE Reviewer

    You're really asking the wrong chap here.
  13. I may have expressed it badly or just missed out a key detail. The UK is not exclusively responsible for the employers' pension contributions for UK citizens employed by the EU; neither are those UK citizens the responsibly of just the UK. When they are employed by the EU they are not really British anyway. The assumed fiction is that EU and NATO officials have neutral nationality while employed by the organisations and owe their loyalty to the body, not their state of birth.

    There are a number of EU employees, they are all citizens of EU member states. The employment roll is not by national quota and you may find, for example, that there are proportionately more Poles than Spanish employees, whether you calculate that proportion based on population size or national contribution.

    All the member nations are collectively responsible for the wages, pensions and other benefits of all the organisation's employees. I have not seen the formula for calculating shares of this, but I assume that it is based on size of gross contribution, the same as NATO, the European Patent Office, the European Space Agency and Europol, which are so-called 'Co-ordinated Organisations'.

    On the old Defined Benefits Scheme (like British military pensions) the employees had money deducted from their salary each month which was paid into a big collective EU employees' pot. The employers i.e. the member states were also obliged to contribute to this pot to fund future pensions. What actually happened though was that for some years now there has been enough money in the pot to pay the pensions of those already retired, so in a cynical move the governments decided to withhold their contributions and make them up in the future when the pot needed topping up to meet current (At that future time) liabilities. So to answer your point above, the UK hasn't already paid.

    Up to the point the UK is no longer a member of the EU, it is still one of those employers and has been building up an ever increasing share in that hole, which they still haven't tried to make good. At some point, as more careers mature to the point of retirement, there will be a bigger draw on the fund than the assets held and the nations will be called to stump up. The UK owns part of the hole.

    Obviously, once the UK is no longer an EU member it will also no longer be an employer and cannot be expected to make employers' contributions, regardless of the nationality of the employee.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  14. Not sure the EU can be classed as a civilian company. More like the CS, I would think.
    And Jones & Co would transfer their payments across to Smith & Co so the that's a big amount to start with.
  15. Whatever is and isn’t owed, what is crystal clear is that despite the UK being a principle contributor to the EU they appeared to be more and more taken for granted, overruled, and made to pay for mistakes and policies the EU made and UK stood back from.

    Greece’s acceptance into the EU, despite it’s ineligibility, the EU’s 'blind eye’, followed by the black hole of debt that continues to the present time, coupled with various member state’s inability to keep their financial houses in order, was then further exacerbated by, Merkel’s Madness.

    Her shortsighted triggering of the human avalanche that coursed through Europe with the bulk heading for 'Benefits Britain’ made easy with the EU’s ‘Crown Jewel’ the Schengen free movement. The removal of any undesirable’s of which were legion, then made almost impossible by the EU’s 'human rights edicts and EU Judges.

    This over time triggered our reaction. Leave. What we now see is the nature of the club we are leaving. Their wish to ‘punish’ one of their principle benefactors, threats, derision, insults and promises of a ‘Hard Brexit’ punitive ‘divorce settlements’ despite the advice of their own consultants and advisors.
    €100bn Brexit bill is ‘legally impossible’ to enforce, European Commission’s own lawyers admit

    If the upcoming elections strengthen the PM’s hand in leaving this sorry band of power hungry fools, then the sooner it was done the better, paying what proper dues are owed, and, without the spiteful and ungrateful kicking the EU leadership loudly keep promising us. Meet the latest member of the exit team.
    Britain calls in war broker as battle with Brussels over Brexit gets nasty

    Top of the field, cooler head, fresh pair of eyes, prior top/world level experience, and not from either side. Can’t be too bad a way to go.
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
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