Respect, an open letter to officers.

A

armadillo

Guest
#1
Lately I have noticed that officers are being very disrespectful to junior ranks. I would like to point out, that the young men and women who work for you work hard and will respect your rank regardless.

Lately I was shocked to see officers not responding to salutes. Completely ignoring junior soldiers. There are some officers out there that do not listen to subject matter experts regarding technical faults and issues. If a SME tells you something listen and act upon it. The army has now become a technical organisation and junior soldiers need support. Not rudeness.

The old days of one way conversations are outmoded, out dated and prevalent to dissent in the ranks. Rank does not mean you are more intelligent.

Confidential reports, if a soldier has worked their socks off for you it would be nice to reciprocate the favour and complete the reports on time. You could cost someone a promotion by a year. Which is completely and utterly wrong.

JPA workflow notifications act on them immediately as you are costing the soldier money 75% of the time.

I know the mess is an old boys club and I actually enjoy the tradtions of the British Army. But.....

Rudeness, disrespect to a SME and failing to act upon a soldiers administration needs seem to be the norm these days.

I thought with current operations that the army would become a tighter organisation. I have no interest in a them and us two tier system and if there was no recession I would have signed off.

I am sick to death of rudeness in the work place. A please and thank you goes far. Responding to a salute takes moments. Listening is a communication tool. If a SME says something cannot work or be done listen to them. You can make a command decision based on listening to them and there recommendations.

I know there will be feedback on this, that juniors are disrespectful but remember you lead by example.

Enough said

Armadillo
 
#2
Armadillo, as an ex Reg officer (and now TA officer) I would expect any JNCO worth his/her salt to query it immediately if an officer doesn't return a salute . In the same way as i would expect any junior officer under my command to pull up any rank who walks past them and doesn't salute.
 
#3
armadillo said:
Lately I was shocked to see officers not responding to salutes. Completely ignoring junior soldiers.
Well, if you don't feel able to grip the Officer concerned yourself, have a word with the RSM.

msr
 
#5
You are damn right and in the regiment I served in I saw it happen. An officer lost in thought ignored a JNCos salute. Ay which point the JNCO who had been walking past him halted, did a sharp about turn and said "excuse me Sir! would you mind returning my salute". That officer was never "lost in thought" again while strolling round the battalion. And NO I wasn't that officer:)
 

Sixty

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#7
squiffy_parsons said:
OK I have to ask and know I'll regret it but whats an SME it sounds like an STD.
Subject Matter Expert.
 
#9
Detonator said:
Bob, you think a LCpl should "query" an officer for not returning a salute?
Yes. But having said that I would not have done it the first time I was a L/Cpl. By the time of my second time around (as a L/Cpl) I probably would. I was older and realised how disrespectful (and un-soldierly) it was. A tad like expecting a NCO to recognise the commission but disregarding the soldiers rank. It is supposed to be a two way street.

Perhaps a word to the RSM would be better/easier.
 
#10
Detonator said:
Bob, you think a LCpl should "query" an officer for not returning a salute?
Absolutely I would query an Hofficer for not returning a salute, especially if it was an oiky one pip wonder fresh from the factory. Most young Infantry thrusters these days are just interested in getting to Bn, doing PCBC, doing two years as a Plt banana, possibly doing a stint at ITC and then going for 'them' on reaching rank of Captain (usually after being in Bn for two years). No I am not a Hofficer hater, on the whole most of them are decent blokes who do a good job, but there are a few......
 
#12
squiffy_parsons said:
Sixty said:
squiffy_parsons said:
OK I have to ask and know I'll regret it but whats an SME it sounds like an STD.
Subject Matter Expert.
Thanks.

So Private soldiers think they're SME's ....god forbid
Hmmm, I might venture that a VM Craftsman knows a tad more about power packs than an ALS officer.

It all depends on the parameters you set! 8)
 
#13
If I failed to return a soldiers' salute, then I think it would be entirely appropriate for that soldier to pull me up for it, whether s/he is a sapper, JNCO or SNCO.

It's no different to me pulling up a soldier for failing to salute.

Obviously, there are times when saluting isn't possible (carrying stuff with both hands etc), but that goes both ways, and a modicum of common sense needs to be applied.
 
A

armadillo

Guest
#14
smithie said:
If I failed to return a soldiers' salute, then I think it would be entirely appropriate for that soldier to pull me up for it, whether s/he is a sapper, JNCO or SNCO.

It's no different to me pulling up a soldier for failing to salute.

Obviously, there are times when saluting isn't possible (carrying stuff with both hands etc), but that goes both ways, and a modicum of common sense needs to be applied.
Thank you, I think I have hit a nerve and it is nice to see an officer to respond positively. I hope that my original post did not seem disrespectful. When you are working alongside officers that do not listen nor pay attention it is hard not to grip them in front of the men.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Armadillo
 
#15
armadillo said:
Lately I have noticed that officers are being very disrespectful to junior ranks. I would like to point out, that the young men and women who work for you work hard and will respect your rank regardless.

Lately I was shocked to see officers not responding to salutes. Completely ignoring junior soldiers. There are some officers out there that do not listen to subject matter experts regarding technical faults and issues. If a SME tells you something listen and act upon it. The army has now become a technical organisation and junior soldiers need support. Not rudeness.

The old days of one way conversations are outmoded, out dated and prevalent to dissent in the ranks. Rank does not mean you are more intelligent.

Confidential reports, if a soldier has worked their socks off for you it would be nice to reciprocate the favour and complete the reports on time. You could cost someone a promotion by a year. Which is completely and utterly wrong.

JPA workflow notifications act on them immediately as you are costing the soldier money 75% of the time.

I know the mess is an old boys club and I actually enjoy the tradtions of the British Army. But.....

Rudeness, disrespect to a SME and failing to act upon a soldiers administration needs seem to be the norm these days.

I thought with current operations that the army would become a tighter organisation. I have no interest in a them and us two tier system and if there was no recession I would have signed off.

I am sick to death of rudeness in the work place. A please and thank you goes far. Responding to a salute takes moments. Listening is a communication tool. If a SME says something cannot work or be done listen to them. You can make a command decision based on listening to them and there recommendations.

I know there will be feedback on this, that juniors are disrespectful but remember you lead by example.

Enough said

Armadillo
Armadillo,

First and foremost I agree with you that it is bloody rude of any officer to not return a salute - end of story.
However, a couple of minor issues with your post. Who are all these Pte/LCpl SMEs that are not being listened to by the officers. If the soldier is so knowledgeable then why is he hanging around as a Pte/LCpl? Secondly I think you will find that the main problem with saluting these days is that a lot of junior (and some more senior) soldiers now seem to think that saluting an officer when they walk past is some kind of weakness, and therefore they spend most of their time sloping round the barracks trying to avoid an officer in case they are forced to salute them. I would suggest that in regard to you having a cob on because some officer was not looking out and missed your salute that it is this issue of soldiers avoiding salutes, rather than the other way round, which is more prevalent.
Finally you owning up to the fact that you are only staying in because there is a recession and you can't get a job in civvy street hardly makes me think that this is some wake up call from the rank and file. You were after incoming, but with your chippy comments about the Mess being an old boys club (what has that got to do with anything?) I suspect that we would be better off if you headed off to civvy street rather than getting upset about this matter.
WHF
 
#16
APOLOGIES FOR DOUBLE POST - MONG TYPE AND IT PROBLEMS

armadillo said:
Lately I have noticed that officers are being very disrespectful to junior ranks. I would like to point out, that the young men and women who work for you work hard and will respect your rank regardless.

Lately I was shocked to see officers not responding to salutes. Completely ignoring junior soldiers. There are some officers out there that do not listen to subject matter experts regarding technical faults and issues. If a SME tells you something listen and act upon it. The army has now become a technical organisation and junior soldiers need support. Not rudeness.

The old days of one way conversations are outmoded, out dated and prevalent to dissent in the ranks. Rank does not mean you are more intelligent.

Confidential reports, if a soldier has worked their socks off for you it would be nice to reciprocate the favour and complete the reports on time. You could cost someone a promotion by a year. Which is completely and utterly wrong.

JPA workflow notifications act on them immediately as you are costing the soldier money 75% of the time.

I know the mess is an old boys club and I actually enjoy the tradtions of the British Army. But.....

Rudeness, disrespect to a SME and failing to act upon a soldiers administration needs seem to be the norm these days.

I thought with current operations that the army would become a tighter organisation. I have no interest in a them and us two tier system and if there was no recession I would have signed off.

I am sick to death of rudeness in the work place. A please and thank you goes far. Responding to a salute takes moments. Listening is a communication tool. If a SME says something cannot work or be done listen to them. You can make a command decision based on listening to them and there recommendations.

I know there will be feedback on this, that juniors are disrespectful but remember you lead by example.

Enough said

Armadillo
Armadillo,

First and foremost I agree with you that it is bloody rude of any officer to not return a salute - end of story.
However, a couple of minor issues with your post. Who are all these Pte/LCpl SMEs that are not being listened to by the officers. If the soldier is so knowledgeable then why is he hanging around as a Pte/LCpl? Secondly I think you will find that the main problem with saluting these days is that a lot of junior (and some more senior) soldiers now seem to think that saluting an officer when they walk past is some kind of weakness, and therefore they spend most of their time sloping round the barracks trying to avoid an officer in case they are forced to salute them. I would suggest that in regard to you having a cob on because some officer was not looking out and missed your salute that it is this issue of soldiers avoiding salutes, rather than the other way round, which is more prevalent.
Finally you owning up to the fact that you are only staying in because there is a recession and you can't get a job in civvy street hardly makes me think that this is some wake up call from the rank and file. You were after incoming, but with your chippy comments about the Mess being an old boys club (what has that got to do with anything?) I suspect that we would be better off if you headed off to civvy street rather than getting upset about this matter.
WHF
 
#17
squiffy_parsons said:
Sixty said:
squiffy_parsons said:
OK I have to ask and know I'll regret it but whats an SME it sounds like an STD.
Subject Matter Expert.
Thanks.

So Private soldiers think they're SME's ....god forbid
I depends on the job, squiffy. In the Engineers it's the norm for the Strippy, Officer etc, to look to a "Private" (Sapper) for advice on trade matters.

Also, the medical chain of command (or it did a couple of years ago before I left) has its seperate to the actual chain of command of Team Medics, RMAs, CMTs etc.

I also remember as a Sapper providing medical cover for a CFT suggesting to a Sgt Major that it was probably a not a good idea for one of his guys (a huge Fijian) who had just twisted his knee to put his bergan on the medical wagon and hobble behind the guys for six miles:D

Although I'm sure if I had not said anything, I'd have been on the end of a huge bollocking from somebody!
 
#18
wehappyfew said:
armadillo said:
Lately I have noticed that officers are being very disrespectful to junior ranks. I would like to point out, that the young men and women who work for you work hard and will respect your rank regardless.

Lately I was shocked to see officers not responding to salutes. Completely ignoring junior soldiers. There are some officers out there that do not listen to subject matter experts regarding technical faults and issues. If a SME tells you something listen and act upon it. The army has now become a technical organisation and junior soldiers need support. Not rudeness.

The old days of one way conversations are outmoded, out dated and prevalent to dissent in the ranks. Rank does not mean you are more intelligent.

Confidential reports, if a soldier has worked their socks off for you it would be nice to reciprocate the favour and complete the reports on time. You could cost someone a promotion by a year. Which is completely and utterly wrong.

JPA workflow notifications act on them immediately as you are costing the soldier money 75% of the time.

I know the mess is an old boys club and I actually enjoy the tradtions of the British Army. But.....

Rudeness, disrespect to a SME and failing to act upon a soldiers administration needs seem to be the norm these days.

I thought with current operations that the army would become a tighter organisation. I have no interest in a them and us two tier system and if there was no recession I would have signed off.

I am sick to death of rudeness in the work place. A please and thank you goes far. Responding to a salute takes moments. Listening is a communication tool. If a SME says something cannot work or be done listen to them. You can make a command decision based on listening to them and there recommendations.

I know there will be feedback on this, that juniors are disrespectful but remember you lead by example.

Enough said

Armadillo
Armadillo,

First and foremost I agree with you that it is bloody rude of any officer to not return a salute - end of story.
However, a couple of minor issues with your post. Who are all these Pte/LCpl SMEs that are not being listened to by the officers. If the soldier is so knowledgeable then why is he hanging around as a Pte/LCpl? Secondly I think you will find that the main problem with saluting these days is that a lot of junior (and some more senior) soldiers now seem to think that saluting an officer when they walk past is some kind of weakness, and therefore they spend most of their time sloping round the barracks trying to avoid an officer in case they are forced to salute them. I would suggest that in regard to you having a cob on because some officer was not looking out and missed your salute that it is this issue of soldiers avoiding salutes, rather than the other way round, which is more prevalent.
Finally you owning up to the fact that you are only staying in because there is a recession and you can't get a job in civvy street hardly makes me think that this is some wake up call from the rank and file. You were after incoming, but with your chippy comments about the Mess being an old boys club (what has that got to do with anything?) I suspect that we would be better off if you headed off to civvy street rather than getting upset about this matter.
WHF
Agreed,

Though I have had an experience with MCM div of late which has made me rather sad when it comes to our soldiers being looked after. This chap at MCM div was quite aware that my SNCOs last CR was six months over due from his previous posting. When I asked why he hadn't chased it up and why he didn't seem to care, he avoided the subject.

Officers certainly should spend more time talking to their soldiers, but from my (limited) experience, you've got things quite out of proportion Armadillo
 
#19
Armadillo nice one. I gripped the Ops officer of 3 R Irish (when it existed), and recieved a full verbal apology for failing to mirror my salute.

I approached it as " Sir, I saluted your commission however I believe you should have reciprocated".

He saluted within seconds. Job done nothing more said....
 
#20
Armadillo,

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about something that probably amounts to one or two isolated incidents. Why are you writing an 'open' letter moaning on an anonymous website? Would you not be better dealing with the individuals yourself, or through the CoC as appropriate. Or are your observations so widespread that the entire Officer Corps are damned by your remarks.

There will always be 2 sides to consider. I routinely fail to salute soldiers as I enter camp in the morning. Handling a bicycle and a dog leaves me with a distinct lack of a right hand to salute with; however I do brace up and respond to the guys and girls on the gate. Would my failing to salute mark me down in your eyes in this instance?
 

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