Reserve Forces and the Fire & Rescue Service.

#1
I have been told that to become a retained firefighter in Cambridgeshire Fire & Rescue, I must forget the idea of joining the TA. I dont think its anything against the TA as such because Essex firefighters are not allowed to be police officers, so maybe there is a bizzare rule that you can only work for one service! :frustrated:

Has anyone else encountered this problem with the Fire Service?
 
#2
This is due to the new EU drivers hours regulations which say about the amount of rest time you must have between shifts. Royal Mail are also enforcing this rule which comes into effect on 11/04/07 . I have been rattling a few cages on this subject but so far the rule still stands. :frustrated:
 
#3
No, it is due to limits being placed by certain Fire Brigades on the percentage of their members being in the TA.

I would ask to see a copy of their policy if I were you.

msr
 
#4
Its a pretty rank situation, because I really want to do both, though I know I can only choose one.

I can the Fire Service point of view in that you may have to miss drill nights to attend TA drill nights, (the fire station and TA unit have the same evenings, so I'm buggered anyway) but I thought that someone like a CMT would help a fire crew administer emergency life support before an ambulance arrived on scene, and it saves the authority paying for specialist courses.
 
#5
There is also a potential conflict of interest in that the Army has been the emergency back up in fire brigade industrial disputes.

This is minor point, but as a member of the TA you wouldn't be allowed to go on strike if your colleagues did - it would breach the service test.

This discussion came up recently at the AMSTC regarding medics going on strike - similar principle.

Not that this should prevent you being in the fire brigade and the TA mind...

FF.
 
#6
Friendly_Fire said:
There is also a potential conflict of interest in that the Army has been the emergency back up in fire brigade industrial disputes.

This is minor point, but as a member of the TA you wouldn't be allowed to go on strike if your colleagues did - it would breach the service test.

This discussion came up recently at the AMSTC regarding medics going on strike - similar principle.

Not that this should prevent you being in the fire brigade and the TA mind...

FF.
No way.

There is no conflict of interest, the Regular Army man the fire strikes, not TA. It has bugger all to do with that.

Also no idea where your info on the 'breaching a service test' or what ever that is. Some striking firefighters were also in the TA. Fact.

The reason why is to do with reserved occupations. Police and Fire were both classed as reserved occupations, the police decided to allow a max % of thier total force to be in the TA, the Met it is 9%. The fire service until recently never allowed you to be in the TA fullstop. That never stopped people though.

London Fire Brigade now allow firefighters to be in the TA, they havent set a celing yet as they still dont know how many they have in it.

As for being retained and in the TA, well it all boils down to time. Some retain forces allow you to be in the TA as long as there is no conflict of interest (parade nights/duty nights) Your particular force obviously doesnt allow it.

Why not try logging onto the FBU website and seeing if there is guidence there, because if there are people in your brigade who are then that can be used as grounds for a grievence.

So, join the retained, and then after join the TA. No drama's.
 
#7
Whether you try and push the issue also depends on your ultimate ambitions.

are you attempting to become a retained firefighter solely for the benefit of thelocal community (and so you can large it in the clubs at weekends "awright darrrlin, I'm a fireman, wanna slide down me pole" etc etc...)

Or do you have ambitions of becoming full time and are using retained as a stepping stone.

If the latter then think very carefully about rocking the boat in the organisation that you hope to make your career.

Never forget the priorities:-

1. Family
2. Job that pays the mortgage
3. TA
 
#8
Humphrey_De_Tiluel said:
Whether you try and push the issue also depends on your ultimate ambitions.

are you attempting to become a retained firefighter solely for the benefit of thelocal community (and so you can large it in the clubs at weekends "awright darrrlin, I'm a fireman, wanna slide down me pole" etc etc...)

Or do you have ambitions of becoming full time and are using retained as a stepping stone.

If the latter then think very carefully about rocking the boat in the organisation that you hope to make your career.

Never forget the priorities:-

1. Family
2. Job that pays the mortgage
3. TA
If I tried applying to the F&RS as a wholetime firefighter, I wouldnt be able to do the TA because of the shift patterns (2 days, 2 nights, 4 days off).

I wrote to the TA unit that I was interested in, and they sent me a schedule of the training/assessment dates and they are mostly wednesday evenings, which is the same evening of the retained station drill night. I am stuck in between the two as a possible full time job and wanted to see both sides.
 
#9
Dont worry about becoming a full time firefighter and the shifts and being in the TA, lots of people do it. As long as you dont mind having to use some of your annual leave for weekends off then there is no drama's. Trust me.

PM me for more info if you want.



Edited for an attack of the mong's.... :headbang:
 
#10
Carlos_Hathcock_II said:
Dont worry about becoming a full time firefighter and the shifts and being in the TA, lots of people do it. As long as you dont mind having to some some of your annual leave for weekends off then there is no drama's. Trust me.

PM me for more info if you want.
Yeah but how will he fit in his other job as a taxi driver between playing volleyball and going to TA?
 
#11
Carlos_Hathcock_II said:
Dont worry about becoming a full time firefighter and the shifts and being in the TA, lots of people do it. As long as you dont mind having to use some of your annual leave for weekends off then there is no drama's. Trust me.

PM me for more info if you want.



Edited for an attack of the mong's.... :headbang:
Am I correct in guessing you are a wholetimer?
 
#12
Carlos_Hathcock_II said:
Dont worry about becoming a full time firefighter and the shifts and being in the TA, lots of people do it. As long as you dont mind having to use some of your annual leave for weekends off then there is no drama's. Trust me.
:
I think it depends on the fire service. We had over several years a few fire fighters either in or about to join, and the minute the Fire Service found out, they left the TA sharpish.

As C_H_II has suggested speak to the union, but I was under the impression that the retained firefighters had their own union seperate to the FBU hence they did not go on strike a few years back (am prepared to be put in my place over that one)...
 
#13
MightyBigEgo said:
Carlos_Hathcock_II said:
Dont worry about becoming a full time firefighter and the shifts and being in the TA, lots of people do it. As long as you dont mind having to use some of your annual leave for weekends off then there is no drama's. Trust me.
:
I think it depends on the fire service. We had over several years a few fire fighters either in or about to join, and the minute the Fire Service found out, they left the TA sharpish.

As C_H_II has suggested speak to the union, but I was under the impression that the retained firefighters had their own union seperate to the FBU hence they did not go on strike a few years back (am prepared to be put in my place over that one)...
Yes, retained firefighters have a seperate union to the wholetime crews. The TA unit and the retained crew drill on the same evening, so I can only choose one anyway, unless somehow the drill evening finishes before the fire station drill starts! I'm not sure what the times are exactly for the TA unit, as I have been told I will find out more when I go to the Recruit Induction Day, and had interviews with the CO etc.

Saying that, a great deal of firefighters now days are ex forces.

I want to go Wholetime if my plans to study Medicine/Paramedic Science screw up, so I dont really want to rock the boat!
 
#14
TA Regs : 5.034

Government employees, policemen and members of the Fire and Rescue Services

'... or members of the fire and rescue services in full or part time employment by the Home Office or local authorities, are not to be enlisted unless the written consent of the head of department, chief constable or chief fire officer or nominated deputy, as appropriate, has been obtained. Such permission is deemed to grant priority to the TA over the police or fire and rescue services in times of mobilisation or similar emergency'.

I need to get out more.
 
#15
I have known Retained Fire Fighters who are in the TA and I have known full time Fire Fighters that are in the TA.

The best thing you can do is ask for their policy on Armed Forces Reservists.
 
#16
I have just undergone recruitment for wholetime firefighters and passed - but have been put on a one year waiting list for a slot :frustrated:

I know for a fact that to be retained your not allowed to be in the TA, wether you do or not....is a different story :thumright:
 
#17
Carlos_Hathcock_II said:
No way.

There is no conflict of interest, the Regular Army man the fire strikes, not TA. It has bugger all to do with that.

Also no idea where your info on the 'breaching a service test' or what ever that is. Some striking firefighters were also in the TA. Fact.
Exactly my point.

The service test is whether or not your actions impair the military effectiveness of the army. If it does, you are in breach of your commitment to the Army if you do it.

If you are in an emergency service backed up by the Army, such as a fire brigade, going on strike impairs the effectiveness of the Army. The regulars can't be in the front line at the same time as putting out fires. If you, while a TA soldier or officer, strike you are contributing to that impairment by imposing a requirement for one more regular to be deployed in your stead.

I'm not suggesting it should stop one joining both organisations. But one should be aware of the potential conflicts. It's just one of the limitations imposed by taking the oath when you attest.

FF.
 
#18
Brownale said:
I have just undergone recruitment for wholetime firefighters and passed - but have been put on a one year waiting list for a slot :frustrated:

I know for a fact that to be retained your not allowed to be in the TA, wether you do or not....is a different story :thumright:
What F&RS are you at mate?
 
#19
A few facts…

Pre 1996 TA Regs stated that firefighters employed by local authorities were forbidden to join the TA (although at the time many still did!). This was changed under the Reserve Forces Act and now one can be a member of both organisations.

You may well need a letter of authority upon joining the Reserve Forces from your Chief Fire Officer. I suggest you don’t join on the QT just in case you receive a brown envelope one day!!

Most Brigades now have a Service Order on membership of the Reserve Forces. I know both London & Lancashire permit 0.05% of their total workforce (wholetime/retained/civy staff) to be members. Merseyside actually give 1 weeks special leave to attend annual camp. Within Lancashire you have to be out of your probation period (2 years) before you can apply to join the Reserve Forces

With regards to strikes etc, firstly as has happened in Merseyside recently, local authorities are now having to provide resilience and put into place plans that in the event of a strike their appliances will be crewed by existing personnel, as it can’t now be expected of the MOD to automatically come to their aid, the cynical refer to this as a sc*bs charter!

Union wise, the majority of retained are in the same union as the wholetime (FBU). The remainder are in the RFU.

If you were a serving member of Cambridgeshire Fire & Rescue service then you could contest their policy of not allowing membership of the emergency services. But as Humphrey De Tiluel has already stated what is your end goal, if you eventually want to go wholetime then be mindful of how much you rock the boat

Realistically if your TA drill night is on the same night as your retained night, even with permission from Cambridgeshire’s chief, you will be doing yourself and both organisations an injustice because the level of commitment expected from both cannot be met on the same night. If you still want to join/stay in the TA, one option could be a sponsored TA unit?

For the record Reserve Service personnel cannot (yet) be mobilised for industrial action issues.
 
#20
The_Seagull said:
Carlos_Hathcock_II said:
Dont worry about becoming a full time firefighter and the shifts and being in the TA, lots of people do it. As long as you dont mind having to some some of your annual leave for weekends off then there is no drama's. Trust me.

PM me for more info if you want.
Yeah but how will he fit in his other job as a taxi driver between playing volleyball and going to TA?
You forgot to add sleeping and chatting up the local lovely's. :blowkiss:

man_in_slippers said:
Am I correct in guessing you are a wholetimer?
Correct, in London. Have been for 8 years. And in the TA for 14.


Phillip-Kotler said:
TA REGS.......
But they do not say anything about someone who is already in the TA and then joins the Fire Service.
I have known quite a few guys do this, and some were joining retained forces.

Brownale said:
I have just undergone recruitment for wholetime firefighters and passed - but have been put on a one year waiting list for a slot
I know the feeling, I tried to join in ,98, but I had to wait until and intake date of 2000 due to cuts in funding for trainees in London before I could join. Very frustrating.


jimmypegasus, I knew that London have just (in the last 6 months) started to officially allow members to be in the TA but I didnt know the figure, do you have a link or a Brigade Order number so I can have a read? I'm currantly in conversations with the AC in 'charge' of sorting this out, and at the moment London offer up to 21 days off unpaid for TA duties, with proof from your CO.


MIS, a better idea may be to join the TA first, then join the retained crew as the way the regs seem to be written you cannot do it the other way around without permission from both parents, God, Jesus, and your great Aunt Mable.
 

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