Reservations for Apache?

#1
http://www.post-gazette.com/World/20030325apache0325p2.asp
http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/war.photos/25march03/ground_fire.htm

CENTRAL IRAQ, March 24 -- Advanced U.S Army Apache Longbow helicopters making their first large-scale strike deep in Iraq today cut the operation short in the face of intense fire from antiaircraft guns, rocket-propelled grenades and rifles, according to officers and pilots. One of the AH-64Ds went down in a farmer's field and its two pilots were captured.
There is a thread elsewhere about the use of Apache helicopters during the RM attack on a Taliban fort in Afghanistan. It’s cooking nicely and I don’t want to distract but, given the quotes above, I’m surprised that we are using Apache in a role that still leaves them open to the risk of loss from simple armament.

Have ours been up-armoured or is it further evidence that the guys are fighting and doing so well with one arm tied behind their back by this parsimonious Government?
 
#2
The difference lies in the pilots. The USMC has lost less Cobras (which are far older and very much less advanced than the over rated Apaches.)

...Cobras destroyed hundreds of Iraqi armored vehicles and other targets in the fighting, though the Army used its more formidable AH-64 Apaches for the most aggressive gunship assaults and relegated the Cobra to the patrol and scout roles. The Marines were much more aggressive with their Cobras, in some cases using UH-1N Twin Hueys with more sophisticated FLIR systems to spot targets for the Cobras. No Cobras were shot down by the Iraqis, though two were lost in accidents during the fighting and a third was lost in an accident afterward...

...32 Army Apaches got a bloody nose at Karbala on 23:24 March 2003 when they stumbled into an Iraqi trap, with most of them shot up and two lost. There were no serious injuries to the crews, a testimony to the good protection provided by the type, but the incident did help the Marines feel better about their Cobras.
http://www.vectorsite.net/avcobra_2.html

Although this may not present the complete picture, it is generally believed that Army pilots do not fully engage the Apache to it's maximum potential.

For Marine Pilots, it's all about pushing the limits.
 
#3
OldRedCap said:
There is a thread elsewhere about the use of Apache helicopters during the RM attack on a Taliban fort in Afghanistan. It’s cooking nicely and I don’t want to distract but, given the quotes above, I’m surprised that we are using Apache in a role that still leaves them open to the risk of loss from simple armament.

Have ours been up-armoured or is it further evidence that the guys are fighting and doing so well with one arm tied behind their back by this parsimonious Government?
I think a WAH-64 is already as tank like as it can be. If you made a Helicopter totally bullet proof then it would never get off the ground.

But hey, what do I know. :confused:
 
#4
I am reading Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq (Hardcover)
by Thomas Ricks. Do not know his background but he writes that in 2006 US forces abandoned use of Apache on most missions purely on the basis of the 2003 incident.
 
#6
Don't know if it has an real bearing on anything, but I was talking with a US Cav 1st Sgt and he was saying that most of their lads rated the cobra AH-1W as far better than the Apache. Similar offensive stores but a much smaller target.
 
#7
OldRedCap said:
I am reading Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq (Hardcover)
by Thomas Ricks. Do not know his background but he writes that in 2006 US forces abandoned use of Apache on most missions purely on the basis of the 2003 incident.
I really hate writers who sit on the fence, and leave us wondering what they really think . . .

(Where can I get 2 copies of the large print version? I want to send one to B'liar, and one to Dubya - actually - thinking about it - that would be a really good swap. I wouldn't wanna burn the books - but if I could get one dunce for each book . . .

[align=center]maybe I should just call Noel Edmonds[/align]

[align=left]wait a minute: [/align]

[align=center]Dubya would need the audio book version, [/align]

[align=center]fixed to play at a slower speed than for people of normal comprehension .[/align]
[Voices Offstage]. . NUUURSE bring the sedatives trolleeey . . . NOOOOOW!!!!!!

sorry about that . . . rioja, y'know . . . :oops: :pissed:
 
#8
I gather our version of Apache has a better engine but could do with uprated transmission to deliver all the potential benifits to the full...I also think ours has better avionics as far too, but the US may have upgraded theirs now...
 
#9
[quote="Stonker]
I really hate writers who sit on the fence, and leave us wondering what they really think . . .[/quote]

He doesn't think too much of any of them. Comes down hard on Gen Franks
 
#10
OldRedCap said:
[quote="Stonker]
I really hate writers who sit on the fence, and leave us wondering what they really think . . .
He doesn't think too much of any of them. Comes down hard on Gen Franks[/quote]

Any senior official in the pay of the US govt, who didn't resign rather than do what Dubya wanted in '03 should be at least be subject to pillory. At best - shot.

That includes B'liar.

Read both statements together, carefully.
 
#11
Always liked the Cobra as developed for the US Marine Corps. Used to work on the Bell 214b, with very similar Head and blades and that was a lifter, 8,000 Lbs max load if mi memory serves mi well.
Stone age technology for the airframe but both the above have strong powerful donkeys, the Cobra being twin engined and the gearbox, transmision required, to allow the use at low or high altiude.
You can overload a heli transmision, on many modern cabs the engines provided surplus power but taking off with above max load will screw up the Gearbox internals, giving the squared off Roller bearings that the Brit Lynx was nortorious for. But that and Tales of the Green Baron are another subject.
john
 
#12
inbredyokel666 said:
Don't know if it has an real bearing on anything, but I was talking with a US Cav 1st Sgt and he was saying that most of their lads rated the cobra AH-1W as far better than the Apache. Similar offensive stores but a much smaller target.
Last Year March AFB Museum had an open day where you could climb inside the a/c rather than just look at them from the outside. One of the stands was an AH-1W manned by a pilot who had just finished a tour in Iraq in Apache. As a qualifed pilot on both, his view was that both are excellent in role - Apache is designed for the deep strike role and armor killing. AH-1W was designed for CAS role and out performs Apache in that role, but AH-1W could never match Apache in the deep stike role.
 
#13
expat said:
inbredyokel666 said:
Don't know if it has an real bearing on anything, but I was talking with a US Cav 1st Sgt and he was saying that most of their lads rated the cobra AH-1W as far better than the Apache. Similar offensive stores but a much smaller target.
Last Year March AFB Museum had an open day where you could climb inside the a/c rather than just look at them from the outside. One of the stands was an AH-1W manned by a pilot who had just finished a tour in Iraq in Apache. As a qualifed pilot on both, his view was that both are excellent in role - Apache is designed for the deep strike role and armor killing. AH-1W was designed for CAS role and out performs Apache in that role, but AH-1W could never match Apache in the deep stike role.

Which is exactly why the Cobra is the best attack helo in an Iraq/Afghanistan type of battlefield. Now if Dubya decides to start another adventure in Iran....
 
#14
Devil_Dog said:
The difference lies in the pilots. The USMC has lost less Cobras (which are far older and very much less advanced than the over rated Apaches.)

No Cobras were shot down by the Iraqis[/i][/b], though two were lost in accidents during the fighting and a third was lost in an accident afterward...


One was hit by a Dushka on the southern edge of Basra on the day the city fell and came down on the main road near Bridge Three in a controlled crash-landing. The Black Watch reached the shaken but unhurt crew just before a mob of looters from the nearby slums.
 
#15
claymore said:
One was hit by a Dushka on the southern edge of Basra on the day the city fell and came down on the main road near Bridge Three in a controlled crash-landing. The Black Watch reached the shaken but unhurt crew just before a mob of looters from the nearby slums.
Not the last time the jocks have saved some yankie ass! :thumright:
 
#16
Nah, I'd wager that if a Marine Cobra unit was doing the same mission on the same route, they'd have gotten nabbed as well, possibly with more losses. The Iraqis just got it right that time. It happens.

NTM
 
#17
My memory is that on the mission in 2003, hits were recorded on about 28 of 31 Apache. One had 29 bullet holes. Seems Iraqi got very lucky but the pilots were even more lucky.
 
#18
Agent_Smith said:
claymore said:
One was hit by a Dushka on the southern edge of Basra on the day the city fell and came down on the main road near Bridge Three in a controlled crash-landing. The Black Watch reached the shaken but unhurt crew just before a mob of looters from the nearby slums.
Not the last time the jocks have saved some yankie ass! :thumright:
Do the pilots still have their watches and wallets!
 
#19
is it me or using a helicopter gunship for "deepstrike" seems a bit well
****ing STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lets see send a tornado f16 or something at mach something or other and plaster it with smart bombs while the defenders are going what the **** was that
or motor along at 200 mph slightly slower than a mosquito giving everybody plenty of time to have a pot at you with an ak rpq gpmg whatever
might work if you went at night
 
#20
California_Tanker said:
Nah, I'd wager that if a Marine Cobra unit was doing the same mission on the same route, they'd have gotten nabbed as well, possibly with more losses. The Iraqis just got it right that time. It happens.

NTM
CT

Judging by your reply to the 2003 incident I would guess that you are "clued in" as to what happened and where the fault with that mission lay. Are you a six element btw?

For what it's worth, I concur with your assessment.
 

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