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Reports of US Trps in Afghan Patrolling with No Round in Wpn

#1
Some US troops in Afghanistan may patrol with no rounds chambered in weapons

Date Wednesday, May 19, 2010 at 04:27PM


Commanders have reportedly ordered a U.S. military unit in Afghanistan to patrol in a manner that could handicap them.

Some soldiers are being ordered to conduct patrols without a round chambered in their weapons, The US Report has learned from an anonymous source at a forward operating base in Afghanistan. Our source was unsure if the order came from his unit or if it affected other units.

On war correspondent Michael Yon's Facebook page, commenters stated that this is a common practice in Iraq, while others said that it is occurring in Afghanistan as well. According to military protocol, “Amber” status requires weapons to have a loaded magazine, but the safety on and no round chambered.

"The idea that any combat unit would conduct any operation, including patrolling and even manning a security post -- in which direct action may-or-may not take place -- and not having weapons loaded, borders on being criminally negligent in my opinion," says Lt. Col. W. Thomas Smith Jr., a recognized expert on terrorism and military/national defense issues. "This is nothing more than infusing politically correct restrictions into already overly restrictive rules of engagement. And this PC nonsense is going to get people killed."

According to Smith, "American soldiers are highly skilled in the use of 'loaded' weapons, and so should be trusted to operate with 'loaded' weapons. If someone overseeing decisions on ROE thinks not, then ratchet up training. But don't put a man on the street and force him to go through multiple prompts when a gunfight breaks out. Remember, the situation can go from quiet to kinetic in half the time it takes to breathe."

In an ambush situation, just how long does it take to engage a target when your weapon isn't already loaded?

“Too long,” states Sandy Daniel, military veteran and Deputy Director of the Victory Institute. “The first couple of seconds in an ambush are critical, and when that block of time is used to load a weapon instead of firing, you are losing the time you need to stay alive. Patrolling without a chambered round is suicide.”

Smith adds, "Let's not forget the catastrophic result of not having weapons loaded on Oct. 23, 1983, when a U.S. Marine sentry barely managed to load his weapon and get off one or two hasty, ineffective shots at the speeding bomb-laden truck that crashed into the Battalion Landing Team headquarters in Beirut. The truck breached the building, the explosives were detonated, and 241 Americans perished in the largest—at that time—non-nuclear blast in history."

The ROE for our forces in Afghanistan, commonly referred to in military circles as the “Karzai 12,” appear similar to the rules for the Marine Corps “peacekeeping” force operating in Lebanon 1982-1984:

1. When on the post, mobile or foot patrol, keep loaded magazine in weapon, bolt closed, weapon on safe, no round in the chamber.
2. Do not chamber a round unless told to do so by a commissioned officer unless you must act in immediate self-defense where deadly force is authorized.

Marines were ordered to know these rules – which they carried on them at all times – as well as their name, rank, and serial number. As Smith points out, we can see just how ineffective these rules were, and how deadly they were to U.S. forces. Had our leaders allowed Marines to carry loaded weapons, perhaps the 241 Marines, sailors, and soldiers killed in the attack would still be alive today.

Hopefully our military won't experience another preventable mass casualty incident like the 1983 Beirut Barracks bombing. But with our leaders repeating the failures of the past by not permitting our troops to carry loaded weapons, it seems we have become our own worst enemy.
http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-r...ghanistan-may-patrol-with-no-rounds-cham.html
 
#11
western said:
Seems you don't understand threat levels, either of you.
And who makes a decision on the threat level?

I've worked with somesuch units, and I wouldn't trust a few of them to tie their own laces.

If someone told you it was safe to cross the road when the little man is Red, would you believe them?
 
#13
western said:
Not having the weapon made ready, it can't be justified in all circumstances.
I have no opinion on it, I have never been and never will be in Afghanistan so I have little right to pass comment.
However I got the impression from the article that the issue is that there are occasions when having the weapon made ready is prudent but soldiers are restricted from doing so?
Surely the decision should be made locally and according to threat rather than a policy imposed from a distance?
 

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#14
When on the post, mobile or foot patrol, keep loaded magazine in weapon, bolt closed, weapon on safe, no round in the chamber.
2. Do not chamber a round unless told to do so by a commissioned officer unless you must act in immediate self-defense where deadly force is authorized
The highlighted bit above sounds like lunacy to me, but i know in Iraq 2005, we routinely went out without a round in the chamber. It was up to us to decide on how to escalate the situation etc.
 
#15
Some PBs have a very high threat level, those in Sangin for instance others do not.

On a patrol the point is at higher threat than the third fourth or fifth guy in line, their states of readiness should reflect this. Although in high threat areas all should carry cocked weapons.

It takes less than a second to cock a weapon and a well trained soldier will achieve that without thinking. It would be interesting to see the level of negligent discharges and injuries caused by p1ss poor soldiers and over readied weapons.

Are you suggesting that the storeman buried in the back of a truck in the middle of a twenty vehicle convoy should always be at condition 1?
 
#18
Many years ago mid 70s (seems like a lifetime) when patrolling in Northern Ireland we werent allowed weapons cocked even when PIRA were trying out their latest toy the M60. We all taped open the cocking handle on the good old SLR only to be told to remove the tape as it looked to aggresive ha! would you believe it to aggresive.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#19
western said:
Alsacien said:
western said:
Not having the weapon made ready, it can't be justified in all circumstances.
Giving weapons to RMP cannot be justified in all circumstances, but nevertheless......
Tell that to the dead RMP, w4nker.
Tell it to the dead guy in the middle of the convoy that got ambushed w4nker.....

...and I did tell it to the RMP full screw that ND'd his HiPower before entering my guardroom......
 
#20
Alsacien said:
western said:
Alsacien said:
western said:
Not having the weapon made ready, it can't be justified in all circumstances.
Giving weapons to RMP cannot be justified in all circumstances, but nevertheless......
Tell that to the dead RMP, w4nker.
Tell it to the dead guy in the middle of the convoy that got ambushed w4nker.....

...and I did tell it to the RMP full screw that ND'd his HiPower before entering my guardroom......
And who is he and please explain the circumstances in where one up the spout would have changed things?

Oh I just caught that bit about the ND. I don't doubt that it may have happened but somehow I just don't believe you.
 

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