Removal Of Duty Meal from 1 Jul 07

tricky_ricky

Old-Salt
Are there any pay guru's on here that can give a clear and in laymans terms a breakdown on additional charges and allowance claims that someone is entitled to after 01 July 07, as I'm very confused and dont have an RAO readily at hand to help me out on the matter.

Scenario (well true actually)

A married accompanied Ssgt with 2 kids, living in a Qtr in Scotland, goes on a 6 week course in September 07(RQMS Course) at Deepcut. What is he entitled to? and what will he now pay under the new regs?

The old way that I knew and understood was that he would pay nothing more but gain 'Get you home pay' (GYHP) based on the mileage seperated, plus daily incidenatals, such as newspapers, tel cons etc etc.
 
Another point if i may, what happens when a member of the TA goes on one of these courses at a PAYD establishment? Will they be expected to pay?
 

redstrides

Swinger
tricky_ricky said:
A married accompanied Ssgt with 2 kids, living in a Qtr in Scotland, goes on a 6 week course in September 07(RQMS Course) at Deepcut. What is he entitled to? and what will he now pay under the new regs?
You should pay this:

- Daily Messing Rate for 6 weeks at the Married Unaccompanied Rate of about £2.67 per day (includes weekends) from your pay
- OR pay as you dine per meal if Deepcut is a PAYD mess.

- Mess bill as appropriate

You should be entitled to this:

- Service Transport or rail warrant there & back or a return journey at the duty rate (28p per mile-ish if you drive your own car)

- Actual food costs incurred when travelling there and back up to about £21 each day (i.e 2 claims). Claim through JPA and keep your receipts

- Up to £5 per day for Incidental Expenses claimed on JPA. But you can only claim for actual costs of a daily newspaper, laundary charges and a daily 3 minute phone call home. Again, keep any receipts. I claim for washing powder, and I calim my mess subs if they entitle me to use the washing machine and read a newspaper. As for the phone, I stick a pound coin in a phone box every day - it doesn't give change.

- Either Get-You-Home-Attached (if you can get back at weekends). A daily rate calculated on the distance from Deepcut to your unit. The top whack is £10.50 per day for 530miles - designed to get you home twice a month.

- OR LSA at whatever rate you are on if you cannot get back for a clear 24 hour period within your detachment.

As you are going to/from Scotland you could argue that it is not possible to get home at weekends (and claim LSA). If your LSA rate is less than the GYHA rate, you could alternatively argue that you used Easyjet (and claim GHYA).

The bit that you should be angry with is that before 1 jul you would get your 1st 30 days food for free. Now you pay for the lot. Congratulations, you have been screwed to the tune of £112.50 for being away from your family for 6 weeks.

Hope this helps.
 

redstrides

Swinger
Hobgoblin said:
Serious point coming up.

HMRC recognise this and meals away from normal place of duty can be claimed against tax when running a small business.
Let the debate go on.
A bloody good point.

If you already fill in a tax return, I wonder if you would be able to offset the additional costs as employment-expenses? Since JPA now treats us like civilians, since PAYD is like eating in shopping-mall food-court, and since SFQ rents will move in line with the civillian market over the next few years, perhaps we need to play the goverment at their own game.
 

tricky_ricky

Old-Salt
redstrides said:
tricky_ricky said:
A married accompanied Ssgt with 2 kids, living in a Qtr in Scotland, goes on a 6 week course in September 07(RQMS Course) at Deepcut. What is he entitled to? and what will he now pay under the new regs?
You should pay this:

- Daily Messing Rate for 6 weeks at the Married Unaccompanied Rate of about £2.67 per day (includes weekends) from your pay
- OR pay as you dine per meal if Deepcut is a PAYD mess.

- Mess bill as appropriate

You should be entitled to this:

- Service Transport or rail warrant there & back or a return journey at the duty rate (28p per mile-ish if you drive your own car)

- Actual food costs incurred when travelling there and back up to about £21 each day (i.e 2 claims). Claim through JPA and keep your receipts

- Up to £5 per day for Incidental Expenses claimed on JPA. But you can only claim for actual costs of a daily newspaper, laundary charges and a daily 3 minute phone call home. Again, keep any receipts. I claim for washing powder, and I calim my mess subs if they entitle me to use the washing machine and read a newspaper. As for the phone, I stick a pound coin in a phone box every day - it doesn't give change.

- Either Get-You-Home-Attached (if you can get back at weekends). A daily rate calculated on the distance from Deepcut to your unit. The top whack is £10.50 per day for 530miles - designed to get you home twice a month.

- OR LSA at whatever rate you are on if you cannot get back for a clear 24 hour period within your detachment.

As you are going to/from Scotland you could argue that it is not possible to get home at weekends (and claim LSA). If your LSA rate is less than the GYHA rate, you could alternatively argue that you used Easyjet (and claim GHYA).

The bit that you should be angry with is that before 1 jul you would get your 1st 30 days food for free. Now you pay for the lot. Congratulations, you have been screwed to the tune of £112.50 for being away from your family for 6 weeks.

Hope this helps.
Cheers for that redstrides, much appreciated. That makes it a lot clearer, and as I suspected I'm (as is everyone) getting screwed, probably works out evens stevens on the cash side (cant be arrsed to work out out exactly) but the families weekly food bill wont change and the actual cost of weekend travel will come out of my pocket, and no perk because of seperation.

So regardless which way you look at it, (aimed at singlies who moan about bean stealing) its another cut back. At the end of the day I was a singlie for 7 years before getting married, and that was in the days that pads got seperation allowance and singlies got nothing, now singlies get exactly the same as a pad, and lets face it a singlie is seperated from his 10' x 8' bedspace where as I'm seperated from a wife, 2 kids and a dog which still require feeding,clothed,housed etc.
So singlies please bare in mind that unless your either extremely miserable and shrek looking, someday you might end up serving whilst married and then when you see it from the other side of the fence, you will relise that this latest cut back is a total disgrace.

Hands up all the who wish to go on a non-promotion, non-payrise residential course that will benefit the army but will make no differance to you one iota........but will infact cost you to go on it? Mmmmmm I suspected not many hands.
 

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
The way I see it, a lot of this stems from a time when the Army fed everyone, everywhere they went, regardless what they were.
IE: You are at your home barracks, you get fed.
You got to another camp, you get fed.
You go on ops, you get fed.

So charges were introduced to cover the cost of that food and over time, exemptions, claims and repays were brought in to 'even the playing field', so that if you got sent away somewhere, you would stop paying at your unit and start paying there, or not pay at all depending on conditions, or claim it back depending on the situation, etcetc.

Now, with PAYD coming in, guaranted to cost more than a normal months food bill, the powers-that-be have decided it's a great opportunity to try and wrangle out a few more pennies by cutting back. The excuse quite probably being that, "This is only technically effective until PAYD is 100% rolled-out, then it's your own choice, etccetcetc, make do until then."
Or something to that effect. Possibly with the words 'neccessity to progression' or 'unfortunate requirement to meet costs of x' flung in for good measure.

Basically shafting us. Again.
 

Snagglepuss

Old-Salt
tricky_ricky said:
So singlies please bare in mind that unless your either extremely miserable and shrek looking, someday you might end up serving whilst married and then when you see it from the other side of the fence, you will relise that this latest cut back is a total disgrace.
What a load of rubbish, singlies might have girlfriends / partners too you know. Pads have had it good for long enough, gloating about how much they have made from their disturbance allowance.
Maybe if some of the pads werent so miserable and shrek looking they wouldnt have got married to the first bird they pulled huh????
It works both ways mate!
SP
 

redstrides

Swinger
Snagglepuss said:
What a load of rubbish, singlies might have girlfriends / partners too you know. Pads have had it good for long enough, gloating about how much they have made from their disturbance allowance.
SP
Snagglepuss, you have a point about the relocation grant system, which doesn't offer enough for singlies.

But it isn't just pads who loose out here. Anyone who lives out will now pay for food when ordered on a detachment, whereas they didn't used to; whether single, cohabiting or married. So if you think you might ever live out during your career, then come 1 Jul you have lost an entitlement you could perhaps have found valuable in the future.
 
There seems to be a lot of moaning because people are no longer receiving something for FREE.

Fecking grow up and start paying for what you get. Be thankful for the times in the past when you didn't have to pay for it.
 
Its time time that someone asked a Tax Consultant for guidance. A job for BAFF perhaps? Married and Singles should be treated like for like where this exists.

Many companies have agreed 'away from home' allowances of £5 per night to cover extra expenses and I see no reason why HM Forces should not be made to recognise this as well. This could even cover a soldier when on a 24 hour duty for example if meals are no longer provided.

As I say, its time a few test cases were made.

I'm in civ div now, and live in a 'keep all receipts' climate! My take on expenses is if it is more than I pay out in a normal working day, I want it back, If I am away from my normal place of work, I claim it back.
 
dingerr said:
There seems to be a lot of moaning because people are no longer receiving something for FREE.

Fecking grow up and start paying for what you get. Be thankful for the times in the past when you didn't have to pay for it.
If you leave the Army and become a civvy your employer will pay for your meals when he sends you away on a course. I'm curious as to why you think being a soldier means you should get treated worse than a civvy ? Or is it because you are all hard and warry like and will go out and kill your tea and eat it raw when on a course ?
 

Snagglepuss

Old-Salt
redstrides said:
Snagglepuss, you have a point about the relocation grant system, which doesn't offer enough for singlies.

But it isn't just pads who loose out here. Anyone who lives out will now pay for food when ordered on a detachment, whereas they didn't used to; whether single, cohabiting or married. So if you think you might ever live out during your career, then come 1 Jul you have lost an entitlement you could perhaps have found valuable in the future.
Redstrides,
Yes I totally agree with what you are saying, however I am sick of seeing Pads blaming the Singlies for moaning. They have been overcompensated for far too long while Singlies got Naff all!
I have lived out during my career, owned 2 houses, and had to pay food and accomodation still whilst living in one house.
Maybe I am wrong, and will stand corrected, but havent I (as a singlie) always paid for my food even if away on a course??
I dont see why Pads should have subsidised food / accom when serving unaccompanied either? Do I get subsidised when I move further away from my family?
Rant off :D
SP
 
I don't expect a free luch (but will gladly accept one!)

Do all civvy employers do such a thing? How many would if they ran the number of courses and the length of courses that the Army ran.

Remember this only use to benefit pads, singlies paid food regardless wether they were on course or not.
 

tricky_ricky

Old-Salt
To both Snagglepuss and Dingerr, I take on your comments and they are valid, Its just that I feel its another financial cut back that is affecting the terms and conditions of life in the Army, there are plenty of others that have occured recently, and this is just another. This may sound far fetched but I can see everyone paying for 24hr ration packs in the future, and then Dingerr, I dont think you will have the same point of view.

But there is also a flaw in the reasoning behind it, So everyone will now pay for there meals, Ok then, so why do we receive the whole ammount back when claiming DS (upto £21 a day) so that would be eating for free. And please no one come back with "but thats only on limited occasions when someone is away from there duty station", as I'm in a job where there are people who claim that every day of the week, and believe me they somehow manage to get as close to £21 as possible (its amazing where you can find receipts)

And also, Singlies and married un-accompanied who are living in SSSA situations actually recieve FIA (£10.50 a day, I think) So there actually being paid to eat. Example. I live in a Qtr with wife and kids, there is a singlie living in a civie flat not more than a mile from me (No singlie accom) and he is being paid to buy his food (FIA) where as I pay for my own.

Please dont think I'm just being bitter and twisted (It certainly seems that way) but this latest cut back is just a cut back too far and there now taking the P!SS, I've been in 19 years and have seen both sides of the fence and have always been in the opinion of get it if you can, but there are far to many discrepencies in the terms & conditions and the allowance system is far to complicated, but JPA is supposed to solve this.
 
T_R,

I was under the impression that you could only claim up to £21 DS when there were no service feeding facilities available. So if I went on a course not being held at a military establishment and was accommodated in a hotel then I could claim. If I went on the same course or a military one but was accommodated in a Mess then I would be ineligible to claim it as it is a service facility. As a singly I would continue to pay food charges for either situation, as a pad at the moment I would not pay food charges for the first 30 days.

HOWEVER

when PAYD comes into action across the board a "service" facility is now going to be nothing more than a service station cafe, albeit catering for a somewhat limited client base. As it will be a choice to eat there will all personnel now be able to claim actuals up to £21 when away on a course?
 

tricky_ricky

Old-Salt
Horridlittleman said:
T_R,

I was under the impression that you could only claim up to £21 DS when there were no service feeding facilities available.
yes you are correct, sorry I didnt explain what I ment. Even after the 01 July everyone including pads will have to pay for there food at Service establishments (PAYD or a daily fee) But if you are away from a service establishment you will be paid for your meals (for free)

My example of people receiving DS every day is because their every day work takes them to places where there are no service establishments so are entitled to DS (Its Recruiting by the way) My question was what is the reasoning behind why is there a difference on when and who should pay for there food and who should not?
 

redstrides

Swinger
Here's a comparison that will ring true to anyone who has been on a course with a MOD employee. He will be accommodated in an en-suite hotel, and the MOD will pay for him to eat for free in a restaurant. You will live in a block, and be charged for eating in a canteen.

The reason the entitlements have changed is to harmonise food charges for Pay As You Dine. This is what Livers-in should be concerned about, as it will make their monthly food-bill food more expensive. You used to get a good deal, and someone (who doesn't live in your mess) has changed the rules to save money. Some sites will have a good PAYD contract; others will not. What can you do if you are on a poor site? Pretty much bugger all - the has contractor a site-monopoly (which includes taking 50% of the profits from gaming machines), and has no incentive to provide a better service to you.

The trouble with Servicemen is that we are can-do people who are used to manning-up and making things work. Thats why we are often our own worst enemies, as we don't stand up for our benefits-package like we perhaps would if we were civvies. The loss of food at public expense when on a course is a reduction in our package however you look at it - no different from a pay-cut. So was the 15% increase in SFQ and Barrack/Mess charges last year, so was the new pension scheme, so it is every time they reduce the schools-assistance package, and so on.

I'll go wherever I'm told and do whatever I'm told for as long as I'm told. But I don't see why this government should abuse my sense of duty to reduce our remuneration package any more.
 

Snagglepuss

Old-Salt
tricky_ricky said:
yes you are correct, sorry I didnt explain what I ment. Even after the 01 July everyone including pads will have to pay for there food at Service establishments (PAYD or a daily fee) But if you are away from a service establishment you will be paid for your meals (for free)

My example of people receiving DS every day is because their every day work takes them to places where there are no service establishments so are entitled to DS (Its Recruiting by the way) My question was what is the reasoning behind why is there a difference on when and who should pay for there food and who should not?
Tricky,
Surely now the rules will be clearer (and fairer):
ALL personnel will pay for their food when service catering is available.
When service catering is not available ALL personnel can claim back their EXPENSES.
What do you suggest would be fairer?
SP
 
I think PAYD will even it out across the board as livers in will all pay more to eat and so will livers out! The difference is that a liver out can sit down in his/her pants, eat when they want, cook exactly what they want, buy cheap/expensive goods depending how they feel, roll in at any time and make a sandwich. Generally they will have the real choice that PAYD professes to offer but completely fails to produce!

The issue I have is that the lines between a service facility and a non-service facility are being blurred. Certainly under PAYD the cost difference between a cookhouse/dining facility/mess and a civilian dining facility is going to be less than it currently is.
 

Latest Threads

Top