Relatives of KIA in Iraq due to lack of kit given permission to sue government.

#1
Just breaking on Radio 5 live that relatives of those KIA in Iraq due to lack of kit have been given permission to sue government.

No links available yet.
 
#2
Does "Sue the Government" mean the present MOD budget will have to pay out for the last Governments short comings thus taking even more money away from todays already constrained defense budget?
 
#4
I find it strange that the families of the CR2 blue on blue victims claim their had not been adequate vehicle recognition training. Considering it was CR2 on CR2 you would imagine both crews knew what they looked like.
 
#5
I find it strange that the families of the CR2 blue on blue victims claim their had not been adequate vehicle recognition training. Considering it was CR2 on CR2 you would imagine both crews knew what they looked like.
I'd just picked that up as well. It'd be hell in the tank park each morning otherwise
 
#7
Good and I hope they win. Politicians of all colours like to send our forces into combat and all too frequently they think it will be a short, clean engagement and that we can make do with substandard or missing equipment. There is a moral obligation on government to ensure that those it sends to war are properly equiped to conduct those military operations with the fewest possible casulaties. No doubt the politicans will say defence, like any other government department does not have a limitless budget, I'd counter that by saying if we can't afford to conduct military operations with servicemen properly equiped then as a nation we should radically rethink our foreign and defence policies.
 
#8
I find it strange that the families of the CR2 blue on blue victims claim their had not been adequate vehicle recognition training. Considering it was CR2 on CR2 you would imagine both crews knew what they looked like.
Oh goody, another opportunity for the full facts of this incident to be suppressed/ignored by MOD again. Probably a right Whitehall pain in the arrse to see this surfacing for some more press attention. Ho-hum I'm sure it won't cost them any sleep or this years civil servants bonus!
 
#9
An ex-Para (genuine, not a walt) of my acquaintance who did Telic 1 and 4 said there was never any shortage of kit or body armour where he served. The Snatch LR was not fit for purpose, but we didn't know that at the time.

He said anyone who didn't have body armour or a proper helmet had either lost it or sold it on e-bay for beer tokens and they only had themselves to blame.

What do fellow arrsers think of that view?
 
#10
I find it strange that the families of the CR2 blue on blue victims claim their had not been adequate vehicle recognition training. Considering it was CR2 on CR2 you would imagine both crews knew what they looked like.
Obviously a lot of other factors were involved.

I've lost count of the amount of JNCO's who cannot identify a Warrior with a big **** off Union Flag flying from it. Despite them crewing the vehicle and the only pressure is a classroom test.
 
#14
Hackle said:
Actually I believe it was on thermal imagery.
Which would go some way to showing a complication. Are we seriously saying that tank gunnery has reduced to the level where personnel cannot recognise their own vehicle type through thermal imaging? That would make us worse than the Americans who, as the story goes, were taught to recognise everything that was theirs and anything else could be a target.

I add a disclaimer that I have absolutely no idea about the complexities of tank gunnery and recognition, mean no disrepect to anyone affected by this and am genuinely curious about the issues surrounding this.
 
#15
Ha ha!

Actually I believe it was on thermal imagery.
A bit more complicated than that though, a cluster**** of designated arcs of fire, lack of accuracy in grids given for callsigns, unit boundaries unclear..etc etc, thoughts are of course with the guys involved and the families.

A thermal image is just that though, spent hundreds of hours on simulators and firing the real Mc Coy, some trials were being conducted at Fort Irwin(US) on thermal tagging, similar to IFF on aircraft, i have not seen any feedback from that project which i think was carried out late 90's.
 
#16
I should imagine there's LOT's of people going to be interested in the issues surrounding this.
 
#17
Does "Sue the Government" mean the present MOD budget will have to pay out for the last Governments short comings thus taking even more money away from todays already constrained defense budget?
I am in two minds about this, if the relatives have been compensated for loss why go for more! as it is only as W_B say's i will come out of a defence buget that is already lower than tits on a snake.

Lawyers will only be the real winners here! paid out of the coffers.
 
#18
Which would go some way to showing a complication. Are we seriously saying that tank gunnery has reduced to the level where personnel cannot recognise their own vehicle type through thermal imaging? That would make us worse than the Americans who, as the story goes, were taught to recognise everything that was theirs and anything else could be a target.

I add a disclaimer that I have absolutely no idea about the complexities of tank gunnery and recognition, mean no disrepect to anyone affected by this and am genuinely curious about the issues surrounding this.
In training as in war, tank wise i might add, not having been a footslogger for a very long time, once the range/ front goe's red, or weapons free as our septic friends would say, then yes it is all fair game, having said that there are no crew commanders that i have ever trained or served with who would not have extensive AFV recognition training and done their best to ensure that what was about to be taken was a legitimate target. There have been many close calls at BATUS, the sequence for engaging a left to right mover with sabot type ammo was completed, when a head popped up, from what turned out to be a 432 from another unit down range in the red area. Close.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#19
An ex-Para (genuine, not a walt) of my acquaintance who did Telic 1 and 4 said there was never any shortage of kit or body armour where he served. The Snatch LR was not fit for purpose, but we didn't know that at the time.

He said anyone who didn't have body armour or a proper helmet had either lost it or sold it on e-bay for beer tokens and they only had themselves to blame.

What do fellow arrsers think of that view?
Not entirely correct. I had ECBA, 2 plates and NVGs to start with. Before crossing the border I had to hand the NVGs back to be passed onto to 7 Para RHA to allow them to move into their gun positions at night. I had to hand 1 plate back because there weren't enough to go round, so was left with the choice of front or back.
 
#20
In training as in war, tank wise i might add, not having been a footslogger for a very long time, once the range/ front goe's red, or weapons free as our septic friends would say, then yes it is all fair game, having said that there are no crew commanders that i have ever trained or served with who would not have extensive AFV recognition training and done their best to ensure that what was about to be taken was a legitimate target. There have been many close calls at BATUS, the sequence for engaging a left to right mover with sabot type ammo was completed, when a head popped up, from what turned out to be a 432 from another unit down range in the red area. Close.
That's the point of the case they're making.

Further issues 'could be' how often is trg conducted, to what level, to what standard, are trg aids adequate, is the training conducted 'in context', and quite a few others besides.

I would also suggest the attitude of once the range/front goes red everything being fair game, would pretty much negate any trg conducted to make sure that was not the case.
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top