Reintroduction of WO2

So the RN is to reinstall the rate of WO2 (though this time it’s for all branches and trades, as opposed to just the technical trades). Seeing as we were just about to be rid of the last WO2’s from natural wastage and the rest were rated up to WO1 (and some wo1’s became officers through some other scheme), I wonder how this is meant to pan out with the RN’s current focus on empowerment of ranks/ rates (especially seeing as they’re also culling the higher echelons).
What roles will the new WO2s fill? Can’t imagine many going to sea for some reason.


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So the RN is to reinstall the rate of WO2 (though this time it’s for all branches and trades, as opposed to just the technical trades). Seeing as we were just about to be rid of the last WO2’s from natural wastage and the rest were rated up to WO1 (and some wo1’s became officers through some other scheme), I wonder how this is meant to pan out with the RN’s current focus on empowerment of ranks/ rates (especially seeing as they’re also culling the higher echelons).
What roles will the new WO2s fill? Can’t imagine many going to sea for some reason.


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AIUI, there will only be 1 WO1 post in FF/DD - the EWO. The jobs now done by WO1, which were done by WO2, and previously done by CCPOs, will now be done by WO2 (again). It’s possible (although not guaranteed) that the DepCo posts in the other branches may be done by WO2, but I don’t think that work is “mature”.

Interestingly, the reaction from most SRs I know have been rather “meh”. In the main, the concern has been from Engineers wanting to know why they have to do exams to be ready for promotion (but non-Engineers don’t) and how promotion will impact RRP.
 

Mattb

LE
Can they just make their minds up please?
 

bob231

War Hero
The view from the engineering CPOs on my Ship has been pretty thoroughly negative: their take is that WO1 has now receded out of sight and WO2 does not represent a significant increase on top whack CPO pay. There is also a grumble - may be unfounded - that the RN has managed expectations very poorly and to say there will be no culling of WO1s is saving WO1s at the expense of senior Chiefs.

That said, coming from an Army background it did seem very strange how many WO1s the RN appeared to need.
 
AIUI, there will only be 1 WO1 post in FF/DD - the EWO. The jobs now done by WO1, which were done by WO2, and previously done by CCPOs, will now be done by WO2 (again). It’s possible (although not guaranteed) that the DepCo posts in the other branches may be done by WO2, but I don’t think that work is “mature”.

Interestingly, the reaction from most SRs I know have been rather “meh”. In the main, the concern has been from Engineers wanting to know why they have to do exams to be ready for promotion (but non-Engineers don’t) and how promotion will impact RRP.
Can you write this in English for us ex pongoes please.
 
Right m'heartie, grab a wet and get ready for standeasy productions...

Back in the day (until the early 90s), the RN didn't have WO1, instead we had Fleet Chief Petty Officers. Then their was wailing and gnashing of teeth, so the WO1 rank was introduced. At this point there were not many WO1, less than 1% of the total number of Ratings.

At about the same time, for Engineer Ratings only, a "Charge Chief" position was introduced who would be the senior Senior Rates in an Engineering Department and be responsible for overseeing maintenance management and planning etc. However, this position attracted no extra money, but typically would be the step to promotion. Again, WO1 were c1% of the strength.

Because of mass wailing and gnashing of teeth by Engineer Ratings, c2005 we changed CCPOs into WO2, but only in the Engineer Branches. Suddenly WOs became c3% of the Rating Cadre. Concurrently, non-Engineers went from CPO to WO1, so there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth from Engineers that now they had two promotions to get to WO1 and the others didn't.

Move to c2012, and after the mass loss of Engineer Senior Rates, a decision was made to abolish the WO2 rank, effectively promote all WO2 to WO1, but only de-enrich some of the new WO1 positions. At this point, 5% of Ratings were WO1, which was and is frankly unsustainable.

At the same time as the last event we handed out career extensions like no-bodies business, with many being awarded 37 years Service.

The overall effect was to simultaneously clog up promotion (not enough people leaving at 22 years) and produce a horrendous demand to create more WO1.

I have my own opinions as to the attitudes and behaviours this has driven. I'd simply note for most Officers two promotions are seen as a "good innings" in a full career; for many Ratings, they're expecting 4 or 5 in a shorter timescale...
 

FakeSheikh2

Old-Salt
Thought they were going to re introduce CPO Class 1, 2 & 3 like the yanks do.
WO2 was dropped early 2000's but is a useful rank to have as most ships seem to only have 1 or 2 WO1's.
Mostly marine engineering & ships Executive WO so the extra rank would help.
 
Right m'heartie, grab a wet and get ready for standeasy productions...

Back in the day (until the early 90s), the RN didn't have WO1, instead we had Fleet Chief Petty Officers. Then their was wailing and gnashing of teeth, so the WO1 rank was introduced. At this point there were not many WO1, less than 1% of the total number of Ratings.

At about the same time, for Engineer Ratings only, a "Charge Chief" position was introduced who would be the senior Senior Rates in an Engineering Department and be responsible for overseeing maintenance management and planning etc. However, this position attracted no extra money, but typically would be the step to promotion. Again, WO1 were c1% of the strength.

Because of mass wailing and gnashing of teeth by Engineer Ratings, c2005 we changed CCPOs into WO2, but only in the Engineer Branches. Suddenly WOs became c3% of the Rating Cadre. Concurrently, non-Engineers went from CPO to WO1, so there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth from Engineers that now they had two promotions to get to WO1 and the others didn't.

Move to c2012, and after the mass loss of Engineer Senior Rates, a decision was made to abolish the WO2 rank, effectively promote all WO2 to WO1, but only de-enrich some of the new WO1 positions. At this point, 5% of Ratings were WO1, which was and is frankly unsustainable.

At the same time as the last event we handed out career extensions like no-bodies business, with many being awarded 37 years Service.

The overall effect was to simultaneously clog up promotion (not enough people leaving at 22 years) and produce a horrendous demand to create more WO1.

I have my own opinions as to the attitudes and behaviours this has driven. I'd simply note for most Officers two promotions are seen as a "good innings" in a full career; for many Ratings, they're expecting 4 or 5 in a shorter timescale...

Does this mean that the course to teach SRs how to leap tall buildings with a single bound will now have to be reintroduced?
 

bob231

War Hero
At the same time as the last event we handed out career extensions like no-bodies business, with many being awarded 37 years Service.

The overall effect was to simultaneously clog up promotion (not enough people leaving at 22 years) and produce a horrendous demand to create more WO1.

I have my own opinions as to the attitudes and behaviours this has driven. I'd simply note for most Officers two promotions are seen as a "good innings" in a full career; for many Ratings, they're expecting 4 or 5 in a shorter timescale...
Agree wholeheartedly.

A large amount of the dripping from the Tech CPOs (please note this is my experiences onboard) has been the lack of expectations management and that one of our own was on the last WO1 signal and immediately received a 12 year extension. This - and the demonstrable unwillingness of non-seagoing tech WO1s to retire - means promotion from CPO appears likely to be dead man's shoes for some time.

Personally, I'm in favour. As you note we have an unsustainable number of WO1s, often in jobs that do not require that level of expertise, too many of which aren't seagoing. However, the short term consequence may be a spike in CPOET notice-givers*, with the further loss of experience and qualification that entails.

*However, note AtG's last para: these are individuals on CPO/SSgt pay, plus extras, giving notice because promotion to WO1 has become the norm rather than the exception. Coming from an TA / Army family background, this seemed utterly bizarre when I joined the RN.
 
I think we have a collection of VSOs who frankly are more interested in keeping keen young POs interested and keen, than they are having superannuated WO1s and CPOs hanging around.
 
Does this mean that the course to teach SRs how to leap tall buildings with a single bound will now have to be reintroduced?
Depends if Babcock can produce the course firmware in less than 5 years.
 

bob231

War Hero
I think we have a collection of VSOs who frankly are more interested in keeping keen young POs interested and keen, than they are having superannuated WO1s and CPOs hanging around.
Not at all unreasonable and a laudable aim.

However, given that we have some exceptionally superannuated WO1s and at the same time we have internal studies demonstrating we rely on legacy SQEP* held at CPO level (I don't have the reference to hand; driven by PORFLOT** SWEO*** or his staff), to preserve existing WO1s and accept losses at CPO seems odd. That or I've spent too much time listening to CPOs' drips!


Edit to add glossary:
*Suitably Qualified and Experienced Personnel, used as a shorthand for having the relevant courses/skills to fill a particular role. In the Weapons Engineering world, apparently essential to work on some equipment. Apologies if this is also an Army term.
**Portsmouth Flotilla, akin to Brigade HQ but firmly in a support role. The Surface Fleet is being reorganised into a single flotilla to cut down on Commodores, again a thoroughly good idea.
***Staff Weapons Engineer Officer, the Cdr/Lt-Col at Flotilla/Brigade HQ responsible for oversight of his branch within that Flotilla.
 
Interestingly, the reaction from most SRs I know have been rather “meh”. In the main, the concern has been from Engineers wanting to know why they have to do exams to be ready for promotion (but non-Engineers don’t) and how promotion will impact RRP.
Surely those who were about to make the jump from OR7 to OR9 are going to be a bit pissed off?
 
There is a balance of SQEP v people.

I'm losing people because they see a complete log jam ahead of them and don't want to "wait their turn". There is no good answer, just an answer we're going to have to live with.

As you've said, the real sticking point is we've lots of people "refusing" to go back to sea to help out there - that's just not sustainable.
 

Rab_C

War Hero
At about the same time, for Engineer Ratings only, a "Charge Chief" position was introduced who would be the senior Senior Rates in an Engineering Department and be responsible for overseeing maintenance management and planning etc. However, this position attracted no extra money, but typically would be the step to promotion. Again, WO1 were c1% of the strength.
There you are wrong, CCPOS did get more pay and this was yet another bone of contention in the WO&CPOS mess from the non Tiff CPOs. To most Tiffs of my era the extra pay for CC wasn’t really worth the extra crap received but it was a necessary evil to reach WO that the B13s didn’t have to suffer.
 
There you are wrong, CCPOS did get more pay and this was yet another bone of contention in the WO&CPOS mess from the non Tiff CPOs. To most Tiffs of my era the extra pay for CC wasn’t really worth the extra crap received but it was a necessary evil to reach WO that the B13s didn’t have to suffer.
Interesting - I thought that there was no pay, hence the clamor for WO2!
 

Rab_C

War Hero
Interesting - I thought that there was no pay, hence the clamor for WO2!
Some were not happy that they only held a technical superiority and not a military one. Always made it interesting when voting in a new mess pres if there wasn’t a WO in the mess.
Edited to add.
Now I think about it I believe that their extra pay, like trade pay wasn’t pensionable so this was probably also an issue. 10 years as a CC and still get the same pension as all the other CPOs.
 
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