Referendum on constitutional change this Friday.

#1
What's the feeling Irishers?

I have no dog in this hunt but is this the last yawp of Catholicism in the republic? There's plenty of heat in the abortion debate to be had but is there much light?

I'll admit I've only been following this through Radio 4, so I have no great grasp of the intricacies, whats the money on, a change or no change?
 
#2
#3
Currently Article 40.3.3 of Bunreacht na hEireann states .... The Proposed Change | Referendum on the regulation of termination of pregnancy

The proposal is to change that to “Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy.”

It is the latest in a long road of Constitutional amendments and Supreme Court cases with regard to abortion. The first was the “X Case”, where the State prevented a young woman, who had been raped and impregnated by a family member, travelling to the UK. This resulted in a Referendum to allow the “right to travel”.

Religion IMHO hasn’t got a lot to do with this IMHO (both RC & COI are for keeping the status quo). This is honestly probably the most devisive issue in Irish society.

To be honest I was always anti-abortion (not the burn them at the stake type) but as I’ve got older I’ve seen people in situations where they should have the right to an abortion as that is in what’s both mother and unborn’s best interests. I’m voting for yes for repeal of the 8th Amendment
 
#4
I suppose to give you an idea of the current legal position.

Currently the only reason an abortion can be provided in Ireland is that if the “real and substantive risk of life to the mother” (including suicide).

So rape victims, incest victims, mothers of the unborn with fatal fetal abnormalities and everyone else has to travel to the UK (or elsewhere) if they wish/want to have an abortion.

Any one (including a doctor) who illegally aborts an unborn child in Ireland (including mothers of the unborn ordering abortion pills over the internet) can be fined or sentenced to up to 14 years in prison (or both).

By the way abortion is also illegal in NI
 
#5
The Irish nation has some previous with regards to referenda.

Such is their commitment to democracy that they will keep plugging away doggedly until the electorate finally reach the correct decision. In this regard they were years ahead of 'remain'.

Brendan O'Neill: Asking the Irish to vote again on the Lisbon treaty is arrogant, insulting and undemocratic

It was an EU directive but could not possibly have been achieved without the active collusion of the Irish government.
Abortion is a complicated and completely different issue in fairness.

I think there have been 5 Referendua at this stage on abortion (2 of which were rejected). All of which had different wording.

Ireland has also been found in breach of the ECHR for failing to legislate.



Imho we currently have an Irish solution to an Irish problem - export the problem (or import it illegally).


Ireland is actually one of the safest places in the world to have a child.
 

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#7
This ones going to be really interesting and as a marker of how tight and uncallable it is. Sinn Fein hasn’t made a statement on which side they’re on. (They’re usually very careful to get on the winning side. Maximise their support, party of the people etc)

Novel in the way that the SDLP in the North have risked total meltdown when they announced a free vote and the party leader supported the change much to the annoyance of the older timers, who would be very Catholic and old school.

Strange to see Northern Ireland more backwards than the south.
And our dear leader describing the unionists as ‘welcoming and all inclusive’ she’s right. Unfortunately that’s not a description which would be recognised by the members of her DUP.

Whereas the other unionist party you could have described as welcoming and inclusive . A very broad church indeed.
 
#8
This ones going to be really interesting and as a marker of how tight and uncallable it is. Sinn Fein hasn’t made a statement on which side they’re on. (They’re usually very careful to get on the winning side. Maximise their support, party of the people etc)

Novel in the way that the SDLP in the North have risked total meltdown when they announced a free vote and the party leader supported the change much to the annoyance of the older timers, who would be very Catholic and old school.

Strange to see Northern Ireland more backwards than the south.
And our dear leader describing the unionists as ‘welcoming and all inclusive’ she’s right. Unfortunately that’s not a description which would be recognised by the members of her DUP.

Whereas the other unionist party you could have described as welcoming and inclusive . A very broad church indeed.
Apologies if this a bit of a hijack but the DUP and Sinn Fein are both Marxists

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. - Groucho Marx
 
#10
#11
Currently Article 40.3.3 of Bunreacht na hEireann states .... The Proposed Change | Referendum on the regulation of termination of pregnancy

The proposal is to change that to “Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy.”

It is the latest in a long road of Constitutional amendments and Supreme Court cases with regard to abortion. The first was the “X Case”, where the State prevented a young woman, who had been raped and impregnated by a family member, travelling to the UK. This resulted in a Referendum to allow the “right to travel”.

Religion IMHO hasn’t got a lot to do with this IMHO (both RC & COI are for keeping the status quo). This is honestly probably the most devisive issue in Irish society.

To be honest I was always anti-abortion (not the burn them at the stake type) but as I’ve got older I’ve seen people in situations where they should have the right to an abortion as that is in what’s both mother and unborn’s best interests. I’m voting for yes for repeal of the 8th Amendment
Are you sure about this? From a distance, it looks like the division is between religious conservatism and a more secular view. The RC, COI and Presbyterians are against reform, but my impression is that those for it are either religious liberals or irreligious, therefore, I would guess that Religion is a significant factor.
 
#12
Are you sure about this? From a distance, it looks like the division is between religious conservatism and a more secular view. The RC, COI and Presbyterians are against reform, but my impression is that those for it are either religious liberals or irreligious, therefore, I would guess that Religion is a significant factor.
Certainly the R4 programme I listened to the other day made it sound that way.

Essentially blamed the RC Archbishop of Dublin who started in De Valera's time and held a chokehold over many governments thereafter. Cited his proscription of a University in Dublin as somewhere that would cause Catholics to burn in eternal damnation if they attended!

As I say, I'm quite uneducated on the nuances here.
 
#13
This ones going to be really interesting and as a marker of how tight and uncallable it is. Sinn Fein hasn’t made a statement on which side they’re on. (They’re usually very careful to get on the winning side. Maximise their support, party of the people etc)
SF were traditionally NO afaik

They are now yes (the SF TD who was for retain the 8th on the RTE debate last night had been expelled from SF for a while as he didn’t for the party YES Line).


Are you sure about this? From a distance, it looks like the division is between religious conservatism and a more secular view. The RC, COI and Presbyterians are against reform, but my impression is that those for it are either religious liberals or irreligious, therefore, I would guess that Religion is a significant factor.
Certainly the R4 programme I listened to the other day made it sound that way.
Imho that is over simplicity. It is a much more deeply rooted moral question.

Yes some will look to the Church as to what they should do (especially older generations) but I personally don’t believe that they hold much power on this and have been actually quiet enough.

Essentially blamed the RC Archbishop of Dublin who started in De Valera's time and held a chokehold over many governments thereafter.
DeV and the Archbishop imho wrote Bunreacht na hEireann together
 
#15
SF were traditionally NO afaik

They are now yes (the SF TD who was for retain the 8th on the RTE debate last night had been expelled from SF for a while as he didn’t for the party YES Line).




Imho that is over simplicity. It is a much more deeply rooted moral question.

Yes some will look to the Church as to what they should do (especially older generations) but I personally don’t believe that they hold much power on this and have been actually quiet enough.


DeV and the Archbishop imho wrote Bunreacht na hEireann together
Fair enough. It was an outsiders view, seen through the filter of the U.K. press. I don’t have any particular insight.

Meanwhile it looks like the reformers have won comfortably, which may now leave NI in an awkward position.
 

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