Rees-Mogg: Traitor, Hero or Muppet?

JRM 1/ Traitor, 2/ Hero, 3/ Muppet

  • 1. Traitor

    Votes: 33 6.4%
  • 2. Hero

    Votes: 83 16.2%
  • 3. Muppet

    Votes: 150 29.3%
  • 4. A very nice chap doing his best for the country

    Votes: 246 48.0%

  • Total voters
    512

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
If he's so unhappy with Government policy, why did he support it in the parliamentary vote? Perhaps he should be voting in line with his stated opinion, and resigning his Cabinet position accordingly.
Or, as any sound minded person would do, is size up the issue and if it is relatively minor to your POV then go along with it as the remainder is spot on.

Do you not know how life works or are you perpetually at odds with everyone who does not slavishly follow your decisions?
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
Despite all your frothing, Rees-Mogg wasn't wrong though, was he? Those who self-evacuated lived, those who didn't died. I am still astounded that Dany Cotton was allowed to retire early rather than face prosecution.
Speaking to the offspring who's a Fire Engineer specialising in Building Design about this. He's been following the Enquiries closely and knows/was trained by some of the expert witnesses.

When built, the flats were designed to be fireproof cells, because no-one had ladders long enough to reach the top of the building. The rule to sit tight and await rescue was the solution, and it worked. The fire progressed slowly up the building and rescue arrived before it reached the top.

When Milliband's folly was implemented and the cheap, unsuitable cladding was applied, this changed the way fire behaved, in that it had a way of racing up the outside of the building that didn’t exist when it was built and the rules were written.

At the time the Fire Engineers who signed off the refurbishment were only told about works in the inside, not the cladding which was part of a different, concurrent project. They couldn't inspect what they didn't know about, so an opportunity was lost to change the rules or raise the risk and have the cladding inspected/specified properly.

So a combination of bad legislation, cheapskate 'arms length housing company', cheating cladding suppliers and inept /weak project managers combined to make the rule obsolete.

Shame none of the inhabitants knew about this. Bigger shame that Fire inspections were not acted upon, landings weren't cleared, smoke vents were blocked....
 
Are you permanently braindead?

Romeo-9-of-11.jpg
 

Slime

LE
Speaking to the offspring who's a Fire Engineer specialising in Building Design about this. He's been following the Enquiries closely and knows/was trained by some of the expert witnesses.

When built, the flats were designed to be fireproof cells, because no-one had ladders long enough to reach the top of the building. The rule to sit tight and await rescue was the solution, and it worked. The fire progressed slowly up the building and rescue arrived before it reached the top.

When Milliband's folly was implemented and the cheap, unsuitable cladding was applied, this changed the way fire behaved, in that it had a way of racing up the outside of the building that didn’t exist when it was built and the rules were written.

At the time the Fire Engineers who signed off the refurbishment were only told about works in the inside, not the cladding which was part of a different, concurrent project. They couldn't inspect what they didn't know about, so an opportunity was lost to change the rules or raise the risk and have the cladding inspected/specified properly.

So a combination of bad legislation, cheapskate 'arms length housing company', cheating cladding suppliers and inept /weak project managers combined to make the rule obsolete.

Shame none of the inhabitants knew about this. Bigger shame that Fire inspections were not acted upon, landings weren't cleared, smoke vents were blocked....

I’d suggest the cladding wasn’t the only fire issue with the fabric of the building.

Ive worked on quite a few flats that had a stay put policy as they were designed to be isolated cells.
Not one of them was, and even though fire retarding standards were far poorer in years gone by, many were just built so badly that each and every flat had very easy routes for fire to spread from flat to flat.

A comical example:
A sparky was complaining that three ceiling down lights should have been fire rated ones rather than normal ones…………while right next to the downlights was an internal two foot square void behind a ply wall panel that ran up through the building to carry services up through the block. :)
 
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I’d suggest the cladding wasn’t the only fire issue with the fabric of the building.

Ive worked on quite a few flats that had a stay put policy as they were designed to be isolated cells.
Not one of them was, and even though fire retarding standards were far poorer in years gone by, many were just built so badly that each and every flat had very easy routes for fire to spread from flat to flat.

A comical example:
A sparky was complaining that three ceiling down lights should have bee fire rated ones rather than normal ones…………while right next to the downlights was an internal two foot square void behind a ply wall panel that ran up through the building to carry services up through the block. :)
The building f multi storey blocks and housing has been a scandal for years, especially council projects.

Mog's comment was wrong, I would suggest he knowledge in this case is bolstered with the benefit of hind sight. Can't help thinking that multi storey blocks of flats aren't a great consideration in his constituency.

So many are responsible for Grenfell that no one of consequence will be found responsible.
 

Slime

LE
The building f multi storey blocks and housing has been a scandal for years, especially council projects.

Mog's comment was wrong, I would suggest he knowledge in this case is bolstered with the benefit of hind sight. Can't help thinking that multi storey blocks of flats aren't a great consideration in his constituency.

So many are responsible for Grenfell that no one of consequence will be found responsible.

There aren’t any tall blocks close to his house, but plenty of flats within his constuenay.
 

RBMK

LE
Book Reviewer
There are further issues with the construction of many multi-storey buildings, in particular, the original windows which were fire sealed and of non-combustible construction (usually aluminium) frames were replaced with UPVC frames which were then not properly fire-stopped giving the fire a path into the flats.

The standard of testing of the cladding panels is a whole different matter, as there are multiple classifications of fire resistance, the definitions of which are not clear. The Building Research Establishment which did a lot of the testing and certification used to be a properly independent establishment, now it's largely industry funded. Although they claim to be independent, much of their funding comes from industry projects.

Thirdly, the installation of the cladding panels often does not meet the required installation standards for fire stopping between sections and thus flames can transition between sections of cladding which should have a fire barrier - as at Grenfell. My colleague is a fire specialist who used to work for Factory Mutual Insurance and he was horrified by the poor certification and construction standards.

Cladding done on the cheap almost certainly isn't going to meet the required safety standards, especially with organisations including the suppliers, builders and cladding contractors playing pass the parcel with the building management. The supply chain for Grenfell was so complicated that no-one was taking responsibility and it was easy to pass responsibility onto another party.
 
Despite all your frothing, Rees-Mogg wasn't wrong though, was he? Those who self-evacuated lived, those who didn't died. I am still astounded that Dany Cotton was allowed to retire early rather than face prosecution.
OK - I give in.

Anybody who trusts, and in emergency abides by the advice of, trained professionals* is a fvckwit: their early doom is natural selection in action, and to be lauded for the good of the species.

I'm strangely comforted by this wisdom :roll:

- - - - -
* See also That Nice Man Michael Gove and his "We've had enough of experts" . . . .
 
OK - I give in.

Anybody who trusts, and in emergency abides by the advice of, trained professionals* is a fvckwit: their early doom is natural selection in action, and to be lauded for the good of the species.

I'm strangely comforted by this wisdom :roll:

- - - - -
* See also That Nice Man Michael Gove and his "We've had enough of experts" . . . .

Did you watch any of the Grenfell Tower enquiry? Danny Cotton got absolutely rinsed by counsel.
 

Slime

LE
OK - I give in.

Anybody who trusts, and in emergency abides by the advice of, trained professionals* is a fvckwit: their early doom is natural selection in action, and to be lauded for the good of the species.

I'm strangely comforted by this wisdom :roll:

- - - - -
* See also That Nice Man Michael Gove and his "We've had enough of experts" . . . .

Did I miss you answering whether you would have stayed put in a Grenfell flat, or whether you would have left the building?

As for your first paragraph, very true indeed, those who trusted the fire service phone operators did in fact seal their doom, and paid the price for their inaction.
 

Slime

LE
There is some irony in this thread.
JRM is being castigated for saying he would leave a burning building, even though we know those who stayed died.

Meanwhile the likes of David Lammy are walking around virtually criticism free even though he spread lies and disinformation about the fire.

Edited to correct spelling.
 
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Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
There is some irony in this thread.
JRM is being castigated for saying he would leave a burning building, even those we know those who stayed died.

Meanwhile the likes of David Lammy are walking around virtually criticism free even though he spread lies and disinformation about the fire.
Yes but JRM is rich, well spoken and polite ergo he must be some kind of monster, for umm err reasons and such like FACT! His sister copped for it a while back, over pointing out it was cheaper and healthier to cook a meal at home, naturally only part of the quote, for maximum lefty outrage.
 
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The building f multi storey blocks and housing has been a scandal for years, especially council projects.

Mog's comment was wrong, I would suggest he knowledge in this case is bolstered with the benefit of hind sight. Can't help thinking that multi storey blocks of flats aren't a great consideration in his constituency.

So many are responsible for Grenfell that no one of consequence will be found responsible.

Of course, never mind the local politicos trousering brown envelopes stuffed with cash from the dodgy builders buying the cheapest materials available. All of whom will walk away from this with considerably more money than they started. No charges of corporate culpability ending with prison sentences and public money clawed back for them, nosireebob.

No, have a go at the Tory toff cackling gleefully over the piles of charred bodies.
 
Did you watch any of the Grenfell Tower enquiry? Danny Cotton got absolutely rinsed by counsel.
And that somehow excuses JRM's attitude towards those killed in/breaved by/left destitute by the fire?

Do get a grip.​

He - for once - made an unguarded remark (for which he subsequently had to grovel) that shone a bright light on his attitude to mortals born to circumstances less fortunate than his own, and for which I hold him - and his admirers - in the deepest contempt.
 
And that somehow excuses JRM's attitude towards those killed in/breaved by/left destitute by the fire?

Do get a grip.​

He - for once - made an unguarded remark (for which he subsequently had to grovel) that shone a bright light on his attitude to mortals born to circumstances less fortunate than his own, and for which I hold him - and his admirers - in the deepest contempt.

I'm quite sure he, and they, will cope.
 
And that somehow excuses JRM's attitude towards those killed in/breaved by/left destitute by the fire?

Do get a grip.​

He - for once - made an unguarded remark (for which he subsequently had to grovel) that shone a bright light on his attitude to mortals born to circumstances less fortunate than his own, and for which I hold him - and his admirers - in the deepest contempt.
Might you be projecting those values on to him? You may be creating in your mind the monster you want to see.
 
Did I miss you answering whether you would have stayed put in a Grenfell flat, or whether you would have left the building?
I dunno - I might well have legged it (just in case), based on having fought fires in Leicester in the Fireman's strike of the late pre-Thatcher 1970s.

But then, despite my advancing years, I'm still fit and mobile, - unlike my wife - 5 years my junior - whose 40-summink years of QARANC & NHS nursing has left her with lumbar stenosis, osteo-arthritis, and the urgent (but as yet unanswered, thanks to COVID's impact on the NHS) need for a knee replacement. She's on crutches, in constant pain, struggles to mount the dozen stairs between our ground floor and bedtime (and slowly destroying the banister as she does so).

And we're affluent middle-class types.

Gawd 'elp anybody in my wife's state of health who might have been dwelling in the Grenfell Tower that night. Or like her 80(+) year-old parents - PIL is an ex-RAF officer with heart failure, MIL was badly beat-up in a car crash a half-decade ago. Neither can move without a walking frame, and he needs oxygen to keep him above ground.

Were any of them Grenfell residents at the time of the blaze (I'm confident there were residents no less unfortunate) would JRM be entitled to sneer at them in the way he did?

I think not.

Others should - as they say in Yorkshire - think on.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I dunno - I might well have legged it (just in case), based on having fought fires in Leicester in the Fireman's strike of the late pre-Thatcher 1970s.

But then, despite my advancing years, I'm still fit and mobile, - unlike my wife - 5 years my junior - whose 40-summink years of NHS nursing has left her with lumbar stenosis, osteo-arthritis, and the urgent (but as yet unanswered, thanks to COVID's impact on the NHS) need for a knee replacement. She's on crutches, in constant pain, struggles to mount the dozen stairs between our ground floor and bedtime (and slowly destroying the banister as she does so).

And we're affluent middle-class types.

Gawd 'elp anybody in my wife's state of health who might have been dwelling in the Grenfell Tower that night. Or like her 80(+) year-old parents - PIL is an ex-RAF officer with heart failure, MIL was badly beat-up in a car crash a half-decade ago. Neither can move without a walking frame, and he needs oxygen to keep him above ground.

Were any of them Grenfell residents at the time of the blaze (I'm confident there were residents no less unfortunate) would JRM be entitled to sneer at them in the way he did?

I think not.

Others should - as they say in Yorkshire - think on.
Did he sneer stop them? Are you not projecting onto him. Being critical is not necessarily sneering.
 

Slime

LE
I dunno - I might well have legged it (just in case), based on having fought fires in Leicester in the Fireman's strike of the late pre-Thatcher 1970s.

But then, despite my advancing years, I'm still fit and mobile, - unlike my wife - 5 years my junior - whose 40-summink years of QARANC & NHS nursing has left her with lumbar stenosis, osteo-arthritis, and the urgent (but as yet unanswered, thanks to COVID's impact on the NHS) need for a knee replacement. She's on crutches, in constant pain, struggles to mount the dozen stairs between our ground floor and bedtime (and slowly destroying the banister as she does so).

And we're affluent middle-class types.

Gawd 'elp anybody in my wife's state of health who might have been dwelling in the Grenfell Tower that night. Or like her 80(+) year-old parents - PIL is an ex-RAF officer with heart failure, MIL was badly beat-up in a car crash a half-decade ago. Neither can move without a walking frame, and he needs oxygen to keep him above ground.

Were any of them Grenfell residents at the time of the blaze (I'm confident there were residents no less unfortunate) would JRM be entitled to sneer at them in the way he did?

I think not.

Others should - as they say in Yorkshire - think on.

To cut out the waffle.
You might have agreed with JRMs idea………and lived.

You seem a little confused to what he actually said.
He said what HE would do.

On the other hand, perhaps you are a vile scumbag for suggesting (after the fact) that you might have left the building…….or is it only bad if JRM said it, while OK for you to say the same?

It is rather amusing that the UK government spent over fifty years publicly giving the same advice as JRM, but when he agrees with a half century of advice he is in the wrong. :)
 
To cut out the waffle.
You might have agreed with JRMs idea………and lived.

You seem a little confused to what he actually said.
He said what HE would do.

On the other hand, perhaps you are a vile scumbag for suggesting (after the fact) that you might have left the building…….or is it only bad if JRM said it, while OK for you to say the same?

It is rather amusing that the UK government spent over fifty years publicly giving the same advice as JRM, but when he agrees with a half century of advice he is in the wrong. :)
fvck my old boots, you are deluded.
 
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